Access or Visual Studio?

"Cor Ligthert" wrote in message
...
Kevin,

Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,

What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
allowed to give comments?

and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.

This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page?

I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other
kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it
has some additions)..

This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago
about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who
probably
have forever only used one of both.

Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I have
not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better".

In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and
the knowledge of the ones who use the tools.

Just my thought,

Cor


Indeed. The most complicated stuff I ever wrote in any flavour of VB I
originally developed as classes in VBA. When someone wanted the
functionality as a DLL (for use on their web server) the classes converted
to VB6 with virtually no code changes whatsoever. Conversely, I often get
VB code and classes from free source code sites and convert them very easily
for use in Access.

Maybe Kevin thinks that programming in any flavour of VB is not real
programming. However, since he is a self-confessed dotnet developer, this
seems unlikely: he should be quite used to the notion that what you get to
program these days is not a computer, it's what Microsoft wants you to see,
filtered through any number of layers of their infernal bloatware. None of
it is real programming, not like wot we used to do in the old days, with
proper compilers and real binaries and so on. Ah, happy days.

If Kevin wants to come over all macho and do real programming, he'll have to
convert to the Linux/open source crowd. Kinda hard to put food on the
table, though. Or, he could just shut up and accept that the best tool for
the job is the best tool for the job, and who the hell cares whether it's
"programming" according to some half-baked definition or other.

Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in .NET?
I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult to
learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be the
be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least learn
by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's
ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and
support are minimal.

Just my 2 cents...

Susan

"idi_amin" wrote in message
...
Hi, let me clarify what i mean by "multiuser", i mean several dozen
concurrent users and up. This assumes that the Access application is
designed correctly of course. Which i think maybe the root of a lot of
conflicting opinions here. Even more than .NET development, theres a very
wide range of skill among Access developers. Just as an inexperienced
ASP.NET programmer might build a horrible web application and then blame
ASP.NET itself for its failings, the same thing is even more prone to
happen
in Access, precisely because its so easy to slap together a form that can
do
something useful. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of terribly designed
Access apps which many of us have had to deal with, because the guy in
Accounting who put this neat database together probably didnt care too
much
about relational table design, security, handling ongoing deployments,
code
reuse, backups, transactions, or concurrency.

In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a
properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET
application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application
which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who
have
learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception
because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database
applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them
around.

JMHO,
idi_amin/Premier JiangZemin
-.NET guy who uses Access all the time, enduring the laughter of Oracle
and
SQL DBAs

"SusanV" wrote:

You wrote:
q
I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
/q

Why?

Susan

"JiangZemin" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I disagree with the idea that once you start developing forms in
Access,
its
difficult to move the backend up to SQL. Depending on how the app is
build,
its not very difficult at all to upsize an Access application from
using
JET
to SQL.

If youre talking about completely moving away from Access front-end
development, yeah, then youd have to rewrite a lot of your code. But
its
the same situation if you were to abandon .NET forms as your front end
too.
However, one advantage of using .NET approach is you can properly layer
your
application so that if you do decide to change the front end, it can be
a
lot easier to handle situations where the front-end changes. Access
doesnt
easily allow you to structure your projects to promote reuse. But in
a
smaller, ad-hoc database project its probably fastest to develop.

My biggest hassle with Access development involve handling deployments
of
front-end and Office versioning issues. As far as how easy it is to do
reports, look into Sql Reporting Services, it can import existing
Access
reports. Its pretty easy to use (dont know about labels tho). But
theres
nothing stopping you from building your database app using .NET, and
having
an Access db solely for queries/reports/labels.

I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...

HTH,
Premier JiangZemin

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)"
wrote
in
message ...
Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in
Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard
to
divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database,
like
SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.

If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only,
you
can switch to another database without much pain.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***********************************************
Think outside the box!
***********************************************
"Jerome" wrote in message
...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would
I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's
in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right?
And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!

I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to
pontificate here about the limitations of Access when
clearly they don't know the first thing about it.

Particularly when the message is cross-posted to dotnet newsgroups.

Give us a frigging break !

If the topic is Access, please discuss it in the Access newsgroups,
unless the topic refers to using Access in the .Net Framework environment.



Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Brian" wrote in message
...

"JiangZemin" wrote in message
...

I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP.

That's going to come as a big surprise for those millions of competent and
knowledgeable people worldwide who are happily doing exactly that.

As with any endeavour, you need to know what you are doing. You need to
know how to design your application and it's environment to minimise the
potential problems. You need to understand that some risks will remain,
and
you need to decide whether they are acceptable for your application.
Multiple intra-day backups are quite possible, so that the risk of data
loss
through database corruption can be reduced to a very short time span
indeed.
Security is a big issue: it's not good enough in Access, so if that's a
problem for you, then use a server backend.

I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to pontificate here about
the limitations of Access when clearly they don't know the first thing
about
it.

"Jerome" wrote in message
...

Thanks everybody for the information! Even though the debate got a
little heated it seems ...

I'm still not entirely sure but I think I'll stay with Access as a
front-end to my SQL Server DB since it has so many useful report and
label wizards (which are a pain to emulate in Visual Studio?).

I'd thought about Visual Studio because I had to code some ASP.NET web
pages and thought that if the data connection is the same in Visual
Studio I could use that new-gained knowledge and 'be free' of Access and
its version 'problem' since I would be creating independent applications.

Hm, I'm gonna read some more first about Visual Studio and where it
really fits in!

Thanks again.

Hehehe, if you are worried about version problems, just wait and see what
happens when the dotnet framework has been through a few incarnations.

Don't be fooled by the fact that your dotnet app has the suffix "exe". A
freestanding binary program it is not. In fact, it is so far from being a
freestanding binary program that you have to use an obfuscator to deter
people from nicking your code!

Jerome,

Where it real fits direct in, is when you are using applications not
dedicated for one client, using Internet, using PDA's, using hugh and/or
more at once and all types of databases, having endless amount of users,
have high security issues, etc etc,

However telling that because of your question would mean that there is no
business for one of those. And we have seen that that is not.

Just my opinon.

Cor

"Juan T. Llibre" wrote in message
...

I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to
pontificate here about the limitations of Access when
clearly they don't know the first thing about it.

Particularly when the message is cross-posted to dotnet newsgroups.

Give us a frigging break !

If the topic is Access, please discuss it in the Access newsgroups,
unless the topic refers to using Access in the .Net Framework environment.



Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

I did not notice that it was cross-posted - it wasn't me wot done it, it was
the OP! Whilst that explains the presence of all you rabid dotnet-o-philes
on the thread, my point still stands: people really shouldn't express
opinions on something they know nothing about!

Juan,

I am from the dotNet newsgroups, I find it an interesting discussion.
Therefore in my opinion is this very good use of the UseNet crosspost
facility.

Cor

I am from the dotNet newsgroups

That's no excuse for cross-posting.


I find it an interesting discussion.

If you do, please post your opinions in the Access newsgroups.

Thank you.
We have enough posting volume here as it is.

If anybody is interested in the militations of Access,
in a sense not necessarily related to the .Net Framework,
they should be oerfectly able to find the Access newsgroups
to research or post anything they choose.


Therefore in my opinion is this very good use of the UseNet crosspost
facility.

It was a *lousy* use of cross-posting.
Please don't foist your lazyness on the rest of us.

I know it's hard to be organized,
but you should make a habit of that.



Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Cor Ligthert" wrote in message
...
Juan,

I am from the dotNet newsgroups, I find it an interesting discussion.
Therefore in my opinion is this very good use of the UseNet crosspost
facility.

Cor

"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has
its
place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers
in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat out-of-date
(I
can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all
that
he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be
used
to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no licensing
fee
for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The Jet
engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling
newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.

I did not notice that it was cross-posted - it wasn't me wot done it, it
was
the OP! Whilst that explains the presence of all you rabid
dotnet-o-philes
on the thread, my point still stands: people really shouldn't express
opinions on something they know nothing about!

Physician: Heal Thyself.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

"Juan T. Llibre" wrote in message
...

I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to
pontificate here about the limitations of Access when
clearly they don't know the first thing about it.

Particularly when the message is cross-posted to dotnet newsgroups.

Give us a frigging break !

If the topic is Access, please discuss it in the Access newsgroups,
unless the topic refers to using Access in the .Net Framework
environment.



Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

I did not notice that it was cross-posted - it wasn't me wot done it, it
was
the OP! Whilst that explains the presence of all you rabid
dotnet-o-philes
on the thread, my point still stands: people really shouldn't express
opinions on something they know nothing about!