Microsoft Responds to the Evolution of Online Communities

"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message news:%
"T. Valko" wrote:
I will never again reply to any of your posts and I
will not acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.


Talk about overreaction!

I didn't think it was overreaction.

You seem to have some worthwhile contributions to make yet sometimes you end
up antagonizing people with no apparent reason. I once went out of my way to
help you and spent quite a lot of time in so doing. Maybe in the end it
wasn't helpful, your response back was the only rude reply I have ever had
in these newsgroups. Perhaps it's just a way you have!

Regards,
Peter T

On Wed, 05 May 2010 23:26:01 GMT,
z (Bruce Sinclair) wrote:

In article , "T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a
web based forum!

This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is good
with nothing (well, OK, very little ) that is bad about the on line
community. A short list of these would include:

Quick and easy.
Simple disply.
Can get headers only and download just what you want to read.
Properly threaded discussions.
Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only willing
but eager to help.
Text only (ie *not* web based).
Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out there
to suit everyone.
Archived.

Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has
excellent filters, so that's taken care of.


For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too
slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to
no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons.

I guess there will be a few die hards puts up hand that stick with MS news
groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some
traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it
sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line.

Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good idea.




As just a user and occasional contributor, I concur with Bruce's analysis. I
went and tried the web interface last night (as I have for other forums in the
past), and found it much more difficult to use than the newsgroups. It crashed
a few times (page not accessible errors).

I have better things to do with my time, so when these newsgroups stop
functioning, I will cut down my participation significantly.
--ron

"Peter T" peter_t@discussions wrote in message
...
Maybe in the end it wasn't helpful, your response back was the only rude
reply I have ever had in these newsgroups. Perhaps it's just a way you
have!

Blimey, you have led a sheltered life g

That is a shame Ron, I have enjoyed your contributions. But MS don't care,
there will always be hundreds stepping up even if they aren't up to your
capabilities, and they have shown a blind indifference to those more capable
users amongst us.

Bob

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 May 2010 23:26:01 GMT,
z (Bruce Sinclair) wrote:

In article , "T. Valko"
wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still
a
web based forum!

This is a backward step IMO. To me, newsgroups have everything that is
good
with nothing (well, OK, very little ) that is bad about the on line
community. A short list of these would include:

Quick and easy.
Simple disply.
Can get headers only and download just what you want to read.
Properly threaded discussions.
Access to hundreds/thousands of helpful knowlegeable people not only
willing
but eager to help.
Text only (ie *not* web based).
Many news readers available ... there's is bound to be something out
there
to suit everyone.
Archived.

Negatives ? Well, a few spammers and idiots ... but most news software has
excellent filters, so that's taken care of.


For myself, I will never use a browser to read news or "forums". It's too
slow, too clunky and cumbersome, has bad to non existent threading, bad to
no filters and is ugly, to name a few reasons.

I guess there will be a few die hards puts up hand that stick with MS
news
groups, for a while at least, and it is likely there will still be some
traffic for a while with a few people willing and able to help ... but it
sounds like MS is trying to kill off this helpful support line.

Given it's free to them, I can't imagine why they think this is a good
idea.




As just a user and occasional contributor, I concur with Bruce's analysis.
I
went and tried the web interface last night (as I have for other forums in
the
past), and found it much more difficult to use than the newsgroups. It
crashed
a few times (page not accessible errors).

I have better things to do with my time, so when these newsgroups stop
functioning, I will cut down my participation significantly.
--ron

On Thu, 6 May 2010 12:34:41 +0100, "Bob Phillips"
wrote:

That is a shame Ron, I have enjoyed your contributions. But MS don't care,
there will always be hundreds stepping up even if they aren't up to your
capabilities, and they have shown a blind indifference to those more capable
users amongst us.

Bob

I will lose, also, by not participating. I did notice something called an NNTP
Bridge. I haven't tried that access method yet. Maybe it'll be better than
the Web UI.
--ron

Hi Joe
I didn't sense any negative tone to Biff's post. He posted the same message at
the same time on the other groups, I don't think it had anything to do with your
message, I think you reacted very strongly for nothing,
It's a shame.
That's my opinion.
John


"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I will never again reply to any of your posts and I
will not acknowledge any of your replies to my posts.


Talk about overreaction!


Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

You wrote: "I have no idea if that link mentions the location".

You wrote that in response to my comment which quotes exactly what that link
mentions. So how can you have "no idea"?

Ergo, your comment seems to dismiss or question the correction of my
statement.

I did suspect that you meant to write: "I have not looked at the link
myself". But who am I to put words into your mouth?

And even so, there is no reason for you not to take my word for it, since I
provided a direct quote.

(If I had not directly quoted from the link, it would have been reasonable for
you not to take my word for it.)


All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and
here's a link that I'm aware of to the new Excel forums.

And if you had expressed yourself exactly that way, I would have had no issue
with it.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.

What? Who's casting aspersions?

Not sure if you are calling me a liar...

What? Where are you getting all this negative crap?

All I said was I didn't read the link you provided and here's a link that I'm
aware of to the new Excel forums.

You seem to fly off the handle quite easily and often for reasons that I
don't understand.

So, to eliminate any further misunderstanding of any comments I may make I
will no longer interact with you.

I will never again reply to any of your posts and I will not acknowledge any
of your replies to my posts.

Good grief!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message
...
"T. Valko" wrote:
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

Maybe you should be before you cast aspersions on someone else.


So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

Not sure if you are calling me a liar, or you think I am incapable of
copy-and-pasting, or you simply cannot read. I quoted what that link
mentions. I wrote:

In the Q&A the
"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"



The new Excel forums are located at:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

Yes, that is another way to get the same new Excel forums, apparently.

But the two top-level web sites are very different, at least in appearance.
I cannot explain to you why Microsoft has two different ways to go to the
same place. But that does not make you right and me wrong.

It is not the first time that Microsoft has maintained two different ways to
access the same forums. Jerry Lewis made me aware of two ways to access
(some of) the "Discussion Groups":
www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us, which I have always used,
and http://www.microsoft.com/office/comm...s/default.mspx, which Jerry was
using recently. But in fact, the web site I used has a more complete list
of Excel "Discussion Groups" than the web site that Jerry used.

Caveat emptor.


The UI is completely different but it's still
a web based forum!

There is nothing inherently wrong with a web interface. Google Groups is a
web interface, and I find it reasonably adequate.

I was commenting on Microsoft's historical failure to maintain a reliable
interface, web or otherwise. (Not to say that GG is perfect.) Also,
Microsoft's historical poor support of the interfaces that they provide.
Even with the new Excel forums, I do not see any way to report problems to
Microsoft. (But that might be my oversight. I just looked for the obvious
"contact us" link on one web page.)

I also raised concerns (along with compliments) about how that moderator
process might work. This is based on two decades of experience with
moderated NGs. Perhaps MVP Ron Coderre can offer some insight. Apparently
he is the moderator (or one of them) of some of the new Excel forums.

Lastly, my chief concern is that there will no longer be an alternative
if/when posting problems arise with the new Excel forum. And I will no
longer be able to troubleshoot and explain those problems, like deleted
postings. You have personally benefitted from that just recently.

Oh well, it's a done deal. I am not trying to complain. I am merely trying
to set expectations.


----- original message -----

"T. Valko" wrote in message
...
I didn't go to this link to read about the replacement forum:

http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx

So I have no idea if that link mentions the location of the new forums.

The new Excel forums are located at:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

I've started posting there. The UI is completely different but it's still a
web based forum!

--
Biff
Microsoft Excel MVP


"Joe User" joeu2004 wrote in message
...
wrote:
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin
progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups
to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum
platform.

Translation: Microsoft will force people to use the web interface that
they have maintained so poorly for years and that is the least reliable
and least feature-rich interface for these "forums" that I am aware of.

Confirmation of that fact comes from the official Microsoft Newsgroup
website http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx. In
the Q&A the

"Q: Where can I access these forums from?
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/forums/default.mspx"

The only potentially good thing to come out of this....

"Q: What should newsgroup users prepare for that will be different?
[....]
Additionally, Microsoft newsgroups are not moderated, while the forums
will be."

But the operative word is "potentially".

First, Microsoft has demonstrated complete ineptitude in managing
"forums". Their tools do not work. MS does not respond to problem
reports. In fact, they do not even provide an effective way to report
problems with "forums".

Second, moderating a group is either highly labor-intensive or useless
(just a pass-thru).

But if the moderation is real (and effective), that will mean that
postings will incur delays.

Moreover, I have never heard of moderation done on a scale this large.
Consider the traffic in the m.p.excel newsgroups alone. Well, perhaps
Microsoft will depend on MVPs to be moderators.

Oh well....


----- original message -----

wrote in message
...
Date 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing
down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the
rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to
worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs.

Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort,
consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors
to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment
with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search
engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic
management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by
facilitating discussions in a clean space.

We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the
community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools
and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions.

We are working diligently on providing additional resources and
information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please
refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...s/default.mspx concerning
this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in
additional languages in the next few days.

I have tried it, it is a tad slow, and you still have the odd groupings in
Answers.

--

HTH

Bob

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 May 2010 12:34:41 +0100, "Bob Phillips"

wrote:

That is a shame Ron, I have enjoyed your contributions. But MS don't care,
there will always be hundreds stepping up even if they aren't up to your
capabilities, and they have shown a blind indifference to those more
capable
users amongst us.

Bob

I will lose, also, by not participating. I did notice something called an
NNTP
Bridge. I haven't tried that access method yet. Maybe it'll be better
than
the Web UI.
--ron

"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...

"Jon Peltier" wrote in message
...
There are two problems with NNTP, from Microsoft's viewpoint:

1. It's old and unshiny.
2. It was not invented in Redmond.

3. They are not able to control it - now they decide what is THE right
answer
4. It doesn't have the highly desirable points (now what can they possibly
be for)
Three is the key. I think we will get steamrollered.
SG

"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...

"Peter T" peter_t@discussions wrote in message
...
Maybe in the end it wasn't helpful, your response back was the only rude
reply I have ever had in these newsgroups. Perhaps it's just a way you
have!

Blimey, you have led a sheltered life g

LOL!

I expect you've probably been rude to me but that doesn't count g

Peter

"Peter T" peter_t@discussions wrote in message
...
"Bob Phillips" wrote in message
...

"Peter T" peter_t@discussions wrote in message
...
Maybe in the end it wasn't helpful, your response back was the only rude
reply I have ever had in these newsgroups. Perhaps it's just a way you
have!

Blimey, you have led a sheltered life g

LOL!

I expect you've probably been rude to me but that doesn't count g


That's what everyone says.