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Quirk in W2003 grammar



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 15th, 2009, 09:49 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Tony Jollans
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,297
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

I never suggested it wasn't - or couldn't be - an adverb; I merely think
it's the wrong adverb in context.

I do not like, and would not normally use, "he ran fast", whatever the OED
says. I might use "... need to drive so fast". The difference is so subtle
that it seems only I can see it g.

I must, of course, bow to the OED, and accept it as being correct.

--
Enjoy,
Tony

www.WordArticles.com

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
Will you accept the authority of the Oxford Dictionary?
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexper...uster/a/adverb

Interestingly,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&f...as+adverb&aqi=
turns up quite a few sites that use "fast" as an *example* of an adverb.
The fact that it doesn't end in -ly doesn't make it only an adjective any
more than ending in -ly makes "leisurely," "friendly," or "lonely" an
adverb. Many adverbs don't end in -ly, and some have the same form as an
adjective. See "Adjective and adverb with the same form" at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/le...rnitv217.shtml
(note: a BBC Web site, not U.S.). More at
http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/dur.../gramch25.html

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in message
...
There's nothing wrong with "fast" as an adverb


That doesn't mean that it is correct here. Perhaps it's a difference
between English and American, and I will concede that such usage of
"fast" is not uncommon, but it jars horribly with me.

I suspect the issue is of not recognizing "download" as a possible noun
(only as a verb), which means it is making the verb agree with "movie"
or "file" (or "movie file").


I agree, and I was only guessing at how a machine might think; it's
probably given up the fight by the time it's got as far as "happens", but
if it is recognising (or treating) "downloads" as a verb, what can it
think "happens" might be, that wouldn't give rise to a grammar error of
some sort?

--
Enjoy,
Tony

www.WordArticles.com

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
There's nothing wrong with "fast" as an adverb, but I don't see how any
grammar checker could parse "happens" as a noun since there is no way it
could be used as such. I suspect the issue is of not recognizing
"download" as a possible noun (only as a verb), which means it is making
the verb agree with "movie" or "file" (or "movie file").

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in message
...
it should be "happen very fast"

Actually it should be "happen very quickly" ;-)

The grammar checker is far from perfect and, whilst it will probably
improve over time, is likely to remain so. In general, it struggles
with constructs of the sort you are using as examples, which can't
easily be parsed.

Not knowing quite how to interpret the sentence, Word has to make some
guesses. Given that the sentence has several possible nouns, several
possible verbs, no obvious adjectives, and appears somewhat odd on the
surface, my *guess* is that it assumes "movie" to be an adjective,
downloads" to be the verb, and "happens" to be a noun, which
assumptions allow it to consider the sentence to be valid.

Yes, it happens to be wrong, but we all make mistakes, one of which
would be relying on machine interpretations of language.

--
Enjoy,
Tony

www.WordArticles.com

"L. Mohan Arun" wrote in message
...
I am sick and tired of the irritable and provoking replies in this
thread so my grammar has slipped up. This thread is not about my
grammar, it is about Word 2003 grammar.

More issues with Word 2003 grammar
These downloads is super-fast and free.

- Grammar error not recognized even though "download" is not a mass
noun.

The movie file downloads happens very fast

- No grammar issue recognized but it should be "happen very fast"









  #22  
Old February 15th, 2009, 10:03 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Suzanne S. Barnhill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31,786
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

Okay, I will accept that you are making a distinction of usage rather than
grammar, and I'll bow to that since context certainly does determine the
suitability of given words.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in message
...
I never suggested it wasn't - or couldn't be - an adverb; I merely think
it's the wrong adverb in context.

I do not like, and would not normally use, "he ran fast", whatever the OED
says. I might use "... need to drive so fast". The difference is so subtle
that it seems only I can see it g.

I must, of course, bow to the OED, and accept it as being correct.

--
Enjoy,
Tony

www.WordArticles.com

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
Will you accept the authority of the Oxford Dictionary?
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexper...uster/a/adverb

Interestingly,
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&f...as+adverb&aqi=
turns up quite a few sites that use "fast" as an *example* of an adverb.
The fact that it doesn't end in -ly doesn't make it only an adjective any
more than ending in -ly makes "leisurely," "friendly," or "lonely" an
adverb. Many adverbs don't end in -ly, and some have the same form as an
adjective. See "Adjective and adverb with the same form" at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/le...rnitv217.shtml
(note: a BBC Web site, not U.S.). More at
http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/dur.../gramch25.html

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in message
...
There's nothing wrong with "fast" as an adverb

That doesn't mean that it is correct here. Perhaps it's a difference
between English and American, and I will concede that such usage of
"fast" is not uncommon, but it jars horribly with me.

I suspect the issue is of not recognizing "download" as a possible noun
(only as a verb), which means it is making the verb agree with "movie"
or "file" (or "movie file").

I agree, and I was only guessing at how a machine might think; it's
probably given up the fight by the time it's got as far as "happens",
but if it is recognising (or treating) "downloads" as a verb, what can
it think "happens" might be, that wouldn't give rise to a grammar error
of some sort?

--
Enjoy,
Tony

www.WordArticles.com

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
There's nothing wrong with "fast" as an adverb, but I don't see how any
grammar checker could parse "happens" as a noun since there is no way
it could be used as such. I suspect the issue is of not recognizing
"download" as a possible noun (only as a verb), which means it is
making the verb agree with "movie" or "file" (or "movie file").

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in message
...
it should be "happen very fast"

Actually it should be "happen very quickly" ;-)

The grammar checker is far from perfect and, whilst it will probably
improve over time, is likely to remain so. In general, it struggles
with constructs of the sort you are using as examples, which can't
easily be parsed.

Not knowing quite how to interpret the sentence, Word has to make some
guesses. Given that the sentence has several possible nouns, several
possible verbs, no obvious adjectives, and appears somewhat odd on the
surface, my *guess* is that it assumes "movie" to be an adjective,
downloads" to be the verb, and "happens" to be a noun, which
assumptions allow it to consider the sentence to be valid.

Yes, it happens to be wrong, but we all make mistakes, one of which
would be relying on machine interpretations of language.

--
Enjoy,
Tony

www.WordArticles.com

"L. Mohan Arun" wrote in message
...
I am sick and tired of the irritable and provoking replies in this
thread so my grammar has slipped up. This thread is not about my
grammar, it is about Word 2003 grammar.

More issues with Word 2003 grammar
These downloads is super-fast and free.

- Grammar error not recognized even though "download" is not a mass
noun.

The movie file downloads happens very fast

- No grammar issue recognized but it should be "happen very fast"












  #23  
Old February 15th, 2009, 10:14 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
grammatim[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,788
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

Which of these does either of you prefer:

"Who was faster, Bannister or Coe?"
"Who was quicker, Bannister or Coe?"

(You don't need to be able to say _why_ you prefer one or the other,
only that one of them "feels" better than the other -- or not.)

On Feb 15, 4:03*pm, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
Okay, I will accept that you are making a distinction of usage rather than
grammar, and I'll bow to that since context certainly does determine the
suitability of given words.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org

"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in l...

I never suggested it wasn't - or couldn't be - an adverb; I merely think
it's the wrong adverb in context.


I do not like, and would not normally use, "he ran fast", whatever the OED
says. I might use "... need to drive so fast". The difference is so subtle
that it seems only I can see it g.


I must, of course, bow to the OED, and accept it as being correct.


--
Enjoy,
Tony

  #24  
Old February 15th, 2009, 11:19 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Suzanne S. Barnhill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31,786
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

But there it's a matter of adjectives, not adverbs. I personally have no
objection to "he ran fast," so you'll have to take this up with Tony.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"grammatim" wrote in message
...
Which of these does either of you prefer:

"Who was faster, Bannister or Coe?"
"Who was quicker, Bannister or Coe?"

(You don't need to be able to say _why_ you prefer one or the other,
only that one of them "feels" better than the other -- or not.)

On Feb 15, 4:03 pm, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
Okay, I will accept that you are making a distinction of usage rather than
grammar, and I'll bow to that since context certainly does determine the
suitability of given words.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org

"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in
l...

I never suggested it wasn't - or couldn't be - an adverb; I merely think
it's the wrong adverb in context.


I do not like, and would not normally use, "he ran fast", whatever the
OED
says. I might use "... need to drive so fast". The difference is so
subtle
that it seems only I can see it g.


I must, of course, bow to the OED, and accept it as being correct.


--
Enjoy,
Tony



  #25  
Old February 15th, 2009, 11:57 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Tony Jollans
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,297
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

As Suzanne says, these are adjectives, but there is still a difference; in
isolation, I prefer the first, although either could be acceptable,
dependent upon the wider context.

I might need to sleep on it before expressing a cogent defence, though :-)

--
Enjoy,
Tony

www.WordArticles.com

"grammatim" wrote in message
...
Which of these does either of you prefer:

"Who was faster, Bannister or Coe?"
"Who was quicker, Bannister or Coe?"

(You don't need to be able to say _why_ you prefer one or the other,
only that one of them "feels" better than the other -- or not.)

On Feb 15, 4:03 pm, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:
Okay, I will accept that you are making a distinction of usage rather than
grammar, and I'll bow to that since context certainly does determine the
suitability of given words.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org

"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in
l...

I never suggested it wasn't - or couldn't be - an adverb; I merely think
it's the wrong adverb in context.


I do not like, and would not normally use, "he ran fast", whatever the
OED
says. I might use "... need to drive so fast". The difference is so
subtle
that it seems only I can see it g.


I must, of course, bow to the OED, and accept it as being correct.


--
Enjoy,
Tony


  #26  
Old February 16th, 2009, 05:26 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
grammatim[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,788
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

Part of my point is that the difference between "fast" and "quickly"
in the initial sentence doesn't turn on part of speech, but on lexical
choice; part of my point is to show how a tiny linguistics experiment
can help clear up the question about the initial sentence by looking
at the data from a different angle.

On Feb 15, 5:57*pm, "Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com
wrote:
As Suzanne says, these are adjectives, but there is still a difference; in
isolation, I prefer the first, although either could be acceptable,
dependent upon the wider context.

I might need to sleep on it before expressing a cogent defence, though :-)

--
Enjoy,
Tony

*www.WordArticles.com

"grammatim" wrote in message

...
Which of these does either of you prefer:

"Who was faster, Bannister or Coe?"
"Who was quicker, Bannister or Coe?"

(You don't need to be able to say _why_ you prefer one or the other,
only that one of them "feels" better than the other -- or not.)

On Feb 15, 4:03 pm, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:



Okay, I will accept that you are making a distinction of usage rather than
grammar, and I'll bow to that since context certainly does determine the
suitability of given words.


--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org


"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in
l...


I never suggested it wasn't - or couldn't be - an adverb; I merely think
it's the wrong adverb in context.


I do not like, and would not normally use, "he ran fast", whatever the
OED
says. I might use "... need to drive so fast". The difference is so
subtle
that it seems only I can see it g.


I must, of course, bow to the OED, and accept it as being correct.


--
Enjoy,
Tony-

  #27  
Old February 16th, 2009, 08:23 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Tony Jollans
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,297
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

Part of my point is that the difference between "fast" and "quickly"
in the initial sentence doesn't turn on part of speech, but on lexical
choice;


I completely agree. When I first posted it, I didn't give it a lot of
thought; it wasn't the main point, and I did add a smiley; it was just
something that seemed correct to me.

Both you and Suzanne are better linguists than I, and I wouldn't argue
(much) in my own defence, but, having slept on it, I think the difference
between "fast" and "quickly" is related to whether one is describing a
completed action, similar to the difference between the imperfect and
perfect tenses.

part of my point is to show how a tiny linguistics experiment
can help clear up the question about the initial sentence by looking
at the data from a different angle.


I agree completely here too! I am reminded of Enoch Powell, an English
politician of thirty or so years ago, who, when asked about his precise
speech, replied that he translated everything into latin before saying it,
and if it wouldn't translate, it must be wrong. I don't think I would dream
of doing anything like that, even if I could, but it would certainly be a
way of looking from a different angle.

--
Enjoy,
Tony

www.WordArticles.com

"grammatim" wrote in message
...
Part of my point is that the difference between "fast" and "quickly"
in the initial sentence doesn't turn on part of speech, but on lexical
choice; part of my point is to show how a tiny linguistics experiment
can help clear up the question about the initial sentence by looking
at the data from a different angle.

On Feb 15, 5:57 pm, "Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com
wrote:
As Suzanne says, these are adjectives, but there is still a difference; in
isolation, I prefer the first, although either could be acceptable,
dependent upon the wider context.

I might need to sleep on it before expressing a cogent defence, though :-)

--
Enjoy,
Tony

www.WordArticles.com

"grammatim" wrote in message

...
Which of these does either of you prefer:

"Who was faster, Bannister or Coe?"
"Who was quicker, Bannister or Coe?"

(You don't need to be able to say _why_ you prefer one or the other,
only that one of them "feels" better than the other -- or not.)

On Feb 15, 4:03 pm, "Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote:



Okay, I will accept that you are making a distinction of usage rather
than
grammar, and I'll bow to that since context certainly does determine the
suitability of given words.


--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USAhttp://word.mvps.org


"Tony Jollans" My forename at my surname dot com wrote in
l...


I never suggested it wasn't - or couldn't be - an adverb; I merely
think
it's the wrong adverb in context.


I do not like, and would not normally use, "he ran fast", whatever the
OED
says. I might use "... need to drive so fast". The difference is so
subtle
that it seems only I can see it g.


I must, of course, bow to the OED, and accept it as being correct.


--
Enjoy,
Tony-


  #28  
Old February 16th, 2009, 11:28 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Gordon Bentley-Mix
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 63
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

For once, Peter, I agree with you completely on all points. (And I mean that
sincerely.)
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Uninvited email contact will be marked as SPAM and ignored. Please post all
follow-ups to the newsgroup.


"grammatim" wrote:

On Feb 13, 2:49 am, "L. Mohan Arun" wrote:
Disagree - IT IS a problem with W2003 grammar. And I still say
software is a term that needs to be plural not singular. Or both.
It is not a matter for "disagreement." It is a matter of the way the
English language is spoken. You do not get to decide to change
English.


I am not saying to change English - I am not interested in that. The
purpose of this discussion is that I think "software" can be both
singular or plural in meaning. The purpose of this posting is not
about usage of English, but about Word 2003 grammar. You can take a
look at the thread subject before you post any more of your answers or
please dont answer at all.


You are correct that "software" can be either singular or plural in
meaning. You are incorrect in supposing that the verb number agreees
with the meaning of the word rather than the form of the word.

I am a native speaker of English, I have a graduate degree in
linguistics, and I have worked as an editor for nearly forty years.

On this one particular point, "Word2003 grammar" is correct.

Specifically I am saying that both these sentences with the word
"software" are NOT getting flagged as errors in W2003 grammar

This Software pieces is great
These pieces of Software is great


You now completely change the topic, because the subject of the verb
is no longer "software," but "pieces"; of course the verb (as well as
the determinter "these") must be plural, and if "Word2003 grammar"
does not recognize that, then it's a pretty basic flaw in "Word2003
grammar."

It is blindly taking "software" as singular even though I have
qualified it with "pieces". So it IS something to do with W2003
grammar with the word "software"


You have not understood English grammar. What it should be reacting to
is not "software" at all, because "software" is not the subject of the
verb; "pieces" is.

To prove this type this in w 2003
"There are other softwares for doing this."
"Softwares" term is flagged as error - right click - you will find
"software" as an option. Select that and it now complains about the
"are".


Have you bothered to look in your English grammar book for the concept
"mass noun"? How is it possible that you studied English as a Second
Language and were never taught about mass nouns vs. count nouns?
Regarding those two errors, the computer is absolutely correct.


I have to say that you seem to be getting irritable with this thread
because you are indulging on a direct personal attack rather than
being an objective contributor. If this thread irritates you, then why
you are posting at all? Let others reply if at all they do.


Yes, I am getting irritable, because you continue to misstate the most
elementary facts of English grammar.

Bottom line: Both the words "download" and "software" needs fixing in
Grammar in W2003
Grammar checkers don't operate on words. They operate on grammar.


Yeah so? What I meant is that the grammar implementation in W2003 that
involves these words are not perfect in my opinion.


Any linguist knows that computerized grammar checkers are basically
failures. Human language is far too complex for any computer to
handle. (Yet humans master their own language by the time they're
about three years old.)

You had not previously brought up the word "download," and I most
definitely do not want to know what your problem with it is.


Who said I wanted *you* to know what my problem is - This is a public
thread where others can read and understand about W2003 grammar
issues. I am not asking *you* in particular about any problem with the
word "download" in W2003 grammar.


You were rude to Suzanne, one of the nicest people anywhere, and then
you ignored her second reply, so she wisely withdrew from the thread,
leaving it to me, who am known to be able to be rude to people who
provoke rudeness.

If you really wanted to say that "software" is a mass or uncountable
noun you could have given an authoritative link like this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun
I am not interested in *YOUR* opinion about English grammar or whether
Word 2003 grammar is correct or not, as you yourself may have English
as second language.


Your arrogance is unbelievable.

Maybe you should save your attacks for the people who took your (or
your parents') money for teaching you English, and failing so utterly.

  #29  
Old February 16th, 2009, 04:35 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
grammatim[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,788
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

Thanks! In the sprinters question, I like "faster" better than
"quicker." What do you say?

On Feb 16, 5:28*am, Gordon Bentley-Mix gordon(dot)bentleymix(at)gmail
(dot)com wrote:
For once, Peter, I agree with you completely on all points. (And I mean that
sincerely.)
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Uninvited email contact will be marked as SPAM and ignored. Please post all
follow-ups to the newsgroup.



"grammatim" wrote:
On Feb 13, 2:49 am, "L. Mohan Arun" wrote:
Disagree - IT IS a problem with W2003 grammar. And I still say
software is a term that needs to be plural not singular. Or both.
It is not a matter for "disagreement." It is a matter of the way the
English language is spoken. You do not get to decide to change
English.


I am not saying to change English - I am not interested in that. The
purpose of this discussion is that I think "software" can be both
singular or plural in meaning. The purpose of this posting is not
about usage of English, but about Word 2003 grammar. You can take a
look at the thread subject before you post any more of your answers or
please dont answer at all.


You are correct that "software" can be either singular or plural in
meaning. You are incorrect in supposing that the verb number agreees
with the meaning of the word rather than the form of the word.


I am a native speaker of English, I have a graduate degree in
linguistics, and I have worked as an editor for nearly forty years.


On this one particular point, "Word2003 grammar" is correct.


Specifically I am saying that both these sentences with the word
"software" are NOT getting flagged as errors in W2003 grammar


This Software pieces is great
These pieces of Software is great


You now completely change the topic, because the subject of the verb
is no longer "software," but "pieces"; of course the verb (as well as
the determinter "these") must be plural, and if "Word2003 grammar"
does not recognize that, then it's a pretty basic flaw in "Word2003
grammar."


It is blindly taking "software" as singular even though I have
qualified it with "pieces". So it IS something to do with W2003
grammar with the word "software"


You have not understood English grammar. What it should be reacting to
is not "software" at all, because "software" is not the subject of the
verb; "pieces" is.


To prove this type this in w 2003
"There are other softwares for doing this."
"Softwares" term is flagged as error - right click - you will find
"software" as an option. Select that and it now complains about the
"are".


Have you bothered to look in your English grammar book for the concept
"mass noun"? How is it possible that you studied English as a Second
Language and were never taught about mass nouns vs. count nouns?
Regarding those two errors, the computer is absolutely correct.


I have to say that you seem to be getting irritable with this thread
because you are indulging on a direct personal attack rather than
being an objective contributor. If this thread irritates you, then why
you are posting at all? Let others reply if at all they do.


Yes, I am getting irritable, because you continue to misstate the most
elementary facts of English grammar.


Bottom line: Both the words "download" and "software" needs fixing in
Grammar in W2003
Grammar checkers don't operate on words. They operate on grammar.


Yeah so? What I meant is that the grammar implementation in W2003 that
involves these words are not perfect in my opinion.


Any linguist knows that computerized grammar checkers are basically
failures. Human language is far too complex for any computer to
handle. (Yet humans master their own language by the time they're
about three years old.)


You had not previously brought up the word "download," and I most
definitely do not want to know what your problem with it is.


Who said I wanted *you* to know what my problem is - This is a public
thread where others can read and understand about W2003 grammar
issues. I am not asking *you* in particular about any problem with the
word "download" in W2003 grammar.


You were rude to Suzanne, one of the nicest people anywhere, and then
you ignored her second reply, so she wisely withdrew from the thread,
leaving it to me, who am known to be able to be rude to people who
provoke rudeness.


If you really wanted to say that "software" is a mass or uncountable
noun you could have given an authoritative link like this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun
I am not interested in *YOUR* opinion about English grammar or whether
Word 2003 grammar is correct or not, as you yourself may have English
as second language.


Your arrogance is unbelievable.


Maybe you should save your attacks for the people who took your (or
your parents') money for teaching you English, and failing so utterly.-

  #30  
Old February 16th, 2009, 09:43 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Gordon Bentley-Mix
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 63
Default Quirk in W2003 grammar

Peter,

In my mind there is an extremely fine but important difference between
"fast" and "quick". Fast is related to top speed, whereas quick has more to
do with agility or acceleration.Therefore, while the two sentences are highly
similar, they are not identical.

As for my preference, it depends on what information is being requested. If
the question is about who had the greater maximum speed, then "faster" is the
logical choice. However, if the question is about who could reach a certain
speed soonest, then "quicker" wins. (Pun intended ;-P)

For example, the Bugatti Veyron is billed as being the fastest production
car in the world by virtue of its top speed approaching 300 km/h. However,
there are several production cars which reach 100 km/h in less time and,
therefore, are quicker.

Similarly, something like a Lotus Esprit could probably traverse a winding,
hilly route in less time than a Veyron, and in this instance, I would
classify the Esprit as quicker - although the Veyron is indisputably faster.

Don't you just *love* English? The subtleties are spectacular! No wonder
non-native speakers - no matter how well schooled - find it so difficult, and
software - no matter how well designed - struggles so much.

(Hmm... "software struggles"... is that correct? Word seems to think so.eg)
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Uninvited email contact will be marked as SPAM and ignored. Please post all
follow-ups to the newsgroup.


"grammatim" wrote:

Thanks! In the sprinters question, I like "faster" better than
"quicker." What do you say?

On Feb 16, 5:28 am, Gordon Bentley-Mix gordon(dot)bentleymix(at)gmail
(dot)com wrote:
For once, Peter, I agree with you completely on all points. (And I mean that
sincerely.)
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Uninvited email contact will be marked as SPAM and ignored. Please post all
follow-ups to the newsgroup.



"grammatim" wrote:
On Feb 13, 2:49 am, "L. Mohan Arun" wrote:
Disagree - IT IS a problem with W2003 grammar. And I still say
software is a term that needs to be plural not singular. Or both.
It is not a matter for "disagreement." It is a matter of the way the
English language is spoken. You do not get to decide to change
English.


I am not saying to change English - I am not interested in that. The
purpose of this discussion is that I think "software" can be both
singular or plural in meaning. The purpose of this posting is not
about usage of English, but about Word 2003 grammar. You can take a
look at the thread subject before you post any more of your answers or
please dont answer at all.


You are correct that "software" can be either singular or plural in
meaning. You are incorrect in supposing that the verb number agreees
with the meaning of the word rather than the form of the word.


I am a native speaker of English, I have a graduate degree in
linguistics, and I have worked as an editor for nearly forty years.


On this one particular point, "Word2003 grammar" is correct.


Specifically I am saying that both these sentences with the word
"software" are NOT getting flagged as errors in W2003 grammar


This Software pieces is great
These pieces of Software is great


You now completely change the topic, because the subject of the verb
is no longer "software," but "pieces"; of course the verb (as well as
the determinter "these") must be plural, and if "Word2003 grammar"
does not recognize that, then it's a pretty basic flaw in "Word2003
grammar."


It is blindly taking "software" as singular even though I have
qualified it with "pieces". So it IS something to do with W2003
grammar with the word "software"


You have not understood English grammar. What it should be reacting to
is not "software" at all, because "software" is not the subject of the
verb; "pieces" is.


To prove this type this in w 2003
"There are other softwares for doing this."
"Softwares" term is flagged as error - right click - you will find
"software" as an option. Select that and it now complains about the
"are".


Have you bothered to look in your English grammar book for the concept
"mass noun"? How is it possible that you studied English as a Second
Language and were never taught about mass nouns vs. count nouns?
Regarding those two errors, the computer is absolutely correct.


I have to say that you seem to be getting irritable with this thread
because you are indulging on a direct personal attack rather than
being an objective contributor. If this thread irritates you, then why
you are posting at all? Let others reply if at all they do.


Yes, I am getting irritable, because you continue to misstate the most
elementary facts of English grammar.


Bottom line: Both the words "download" and "software" needs fixing in
Grammar in W2003
Grammar checkers don't operate on words. They operate on grammar.


Yeah so? What I meant is that the grammar implementation in W2003 that
involves these words are not perfect in my opinion.


Any linguist knows that computerized grammar checkers are basically
failures. Human language is far too complex for any computer to
handle. (Yet humans master their own language by the time they're
about three years old.)


You had not previously brought up the word "download," and I most
definitely do not want to know what your problem with it is.


Who said I wanted *you* to know what my problem is - This is a public
thread where others can read and understand about W2003 grammar
issues. I am not asking *you* in particular about any problem with the
word "download" in W2003 grammar.


You were rude to Suzanne, one of the nicest people anywhere, and then
you ignored her second reply, so she wisely withdrew from the thread,
leaving it to me, who am known to be able to be rude to people who
provoke rudeness.


If you really wanted to say that "software" is a mass or uncountable
noun you could have given an authoritative link like this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun
I am not interested in *YOUR* opinion about English grammar or whether
Word 2003 grammar is correct or not, as you yourself may have English
as second language.


Your arrogance is unbelievable.


Maybe you should save your attacks for the people who took your (or
your parents') money for teaching you English, and failing so utterly.-


 




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