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#21
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"Cor Ligthert" wrote in message
... Kevin, Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread except for Greg should be using Access, What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not allowed to give comments? and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA, which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page? I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it has some additions).. This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who probably have forever only used one of both. Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I have not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better". In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and the knowledge of the ones who use the tools. Just my thought, Cor Indeed. The most complicated stuff I ever wrote in any flavour of VB I originally developed as classes in VBA. When someone wanted the functionality as a DLL (for use on their web server) the classes converted to VB6 with virtually no code changes whatsoever. Conversely, I often get VB code and classes from free source code sites and convert them very easily for use in Access. Maybe Kevin thinks that programming in any flavour of VB is not real programming. However, since he is a self-confessed dotnet developer, this seems unlikely: he should be quite used to the notion that what you get to program these days is not a computer, it's what Microsoft wants you to see, filtered through any number of layers of their infernal bloatware. None of it is real programming, not like wot we used to do in the old days, with proper compilers and real binaries and so on. Ah, happy days. If Kevin wants to come over all macho and do real programming, he'll have to convert to the Linux/open source crowd. Kinda hard to put food on the table, though. Or, he could just shut up and accept that the best tool for the job is the best tool for the job, and who the hell cares whether it's "programming" according to some half-baked definition or other. |
#22
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Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in .NET?
I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult to learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be the be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least learn by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and support are minimal. Just my 2 cents... Susan "idi_amin" wrote in message ... Hi, let me clarify what i mean by "multiuser", i mean several dozen concurrent users and up. This assumes that the Access application is designed correctly of course. Which i think maybe the root of a lot of conflicting opinions here. Even more than .NET development, theres a very wide range of skill among Access developers. Just as an inexperienced ASP.NET programmer might build a horrible web application and then blame ASP.NET itself for its failings, the same thing is even more prone to happen in Access, precisely because its so easy to slap together a form that can do something useful. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of terribly designed Access apps which many of us have had to deal with, because the guy in Accounting who put this neat database together probably didnt care too much about relational table design, security, handling ongoing deployments, code reuse, backups, transactions, or concurrency. In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who have learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them around. JMHO, idi_amin/Premier JiangZemin -.NET guy who uses Access all the time, enduring the laughter of Oracle and SQL DBAs "SusanV" wrote: You wrote: q I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for multiuser app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair... /q Why? Susan "JiangZemin" wrote in message ... Hi, I disagree with the idea that once you start developing forms in Access, its difficult to move the backend up to SQL. Depending on how the app is build, its not very difficult at all to upsize an Access application from using JET to SQL. If youre talking about completely moving away from Access front-end development, yeah, then youd have to rewrite a lot of your code. But its the same situation if you were to abandon .NET forms as your front end too. However, one advantage of using .NET approach is you can properly layer your application so that if you do decide to change the front end, it can be a lot easier to handle situations where the front-end changes. Access doesnt easily allow you to structure your projects to promote reuse. But in a smaller, ad-hoc database project its probably fastest to develop. My biggest hassle with Access development involve handling deployments of front-end and Office versioning issues. As far as how easy it is to do reports, look into Sql Reporting Services, it can import existing Access reports. Its pretty easy to use (dont know about labels tho). But theres nothing stopping you from building your database app using .NET, and having an Access db solely for queries/reports/labels. I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for multiuser app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair... HTH, Premier JiangZemin "Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" wrote in message ... Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard to divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database, like SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code. If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only, you can switch to another database without much pain. -- Gregory A. Beamer MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA *********************************************** Think outside the box! *********************************************** "Jerome" wrote in message ... Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I rather write it using Visual Studio .Net? Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in Access?` The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess. I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net Thanks! |
#23
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I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to pontificate here about the limitations of Access when clearly they don't know the first thing about it. Particularly when the message is cross-posted to dotnet newsgroups. Give us a frigging break ! If the topic is Access, please discuss it in the Access newsgroups, unless the topic refers to using Access in the .Net Framework environment. Juan T. Llibre ASP.NET MVP http://asp.net.do/foros/ Foros de ASP.NET en Español Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET... ====================== "Brian" wrote in message ... "JiangZemin" wrote in message ... I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for multiuser app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. That's going to come as a big surprise for those millions of competent and knowledgeable people worldwide who are happily doing exactly that. As with any endeavour, you need to know what you are doing. You need to know how to design your application and it's environment to minimise the potential problems. You need to understand that some risks will remain, and you need to decide whether they are acceptable for your application. Multiple intra-day backups are quite possible, so that the risk of data loss through database corruption can be reduced to a very short time span indeed. Security is a big issue: it's not good enough in Access, so if that's a problem for you, then use a server backend. I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to pontificate here about the limitations of Access when clearly they don't know the first thing about it. |
#24
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"Jerome" wrote in message
... Thanks everybody for the information! Even though the debate got a little heated it seems ... I'm still not entirely sure but I think I'll stay with Access as a front-end to my SQL Server DB since it has so many useful report and label wizards (which are a pain to emulate in Visual Studio?). I'd thought about Visual Studio because I had to code some ASP.NET web pages and thought that if the data connection is the same in Visual Studio I could use that new-gained knowledge and 'be free' of Access and its version 'problem' since I would be creating independent applications. Hm, I'm gonna read some more first about Visual Studio and where it really fits in! Thanks again. Hehehe, if you are worried about version problems, just wait and see what happens when the dotnet framework has been through a few incarnations. Don't be fooled by the fact that your dotnet app has the suffix "exe". A freestanding binary program it is not. In fact, it is so far from being a freestanding binary program that you have to use an obfuscator to deter people from nicking your code! |
#25
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Jerome,
Where it real fits direct in, is when you are using applications not dedicated for one client, using Internet, using PDA's, using hugh and/or more at once and all types of databases, having endless amount of users, have high security issues, etc etc, However telling that because of your question would mean that there is no business for one of those. And we have seen that that is not. Just my opinon. Cor |
#26
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"Juan T. Llibre" wrote in message ... I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to pontificate here about the limitations of Access when clearly they don't know the first thing about it. Particularly when the message is cross-posted to dotnet newsgroups. Give us a frigging break ! If the topic is Access, please discuss it in the Access newsgroups, unless the topic refers to using Access in the .Net Framework environment. Juan T. Llibre ASP.NET MVP http://asp.net.do/foros/ Foros de ASP.NET en Español Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET... ====================== I did not notice that it was cross-posted - it wasn't me wot done it, it was the OP! Whilst that explains the presence of all you rabid dotnet-o-philes on the thread, my point still stands: people really shouldn't express opinions on something they know nothing about! |
#27
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Juan,
I am from the dotNet newsgroups, I find it an interesting discussion. Therefore in my opinion is this very good use of the UseNet crosspost facility. Cor |
#28
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I am from the dotNet newsgroups That's no excuse for cross-posting. I find it an interesting discussion. If you do, please post your opinions in the Access newsgroups. Thank you. We have enough posting volume here as it is. If anybody is interested in the militations of Access, in a sense not necessarily related to the .Net Framework, they should be oerfectly able to find the Access newsgroups to research or post anything they choose. Therefore in my opinion is this very good use of the UseNet crosspost facility. It was a *lousy* use of cross-posting. Please don't foist your lazyness on the rest of us. I know it's hard to be organized, but you should make a habit of that. Juan T. Llibre ASP.NET MVP http://asp.net.do/foros/ Foros de ASP.NET en Español Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET... ====================== "Cor Ligthert" wrote in message ... Juan, I am from the dotNet newsgroups, I find it an interesting discussion. Therefore in my opinion is this very good use of the UseNet crosspost facility. Cor |
#29
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"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling -- HTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP ..Net Developer What You Seek Is What You Get. "Brian" wrote in message ... "Kevin Spencer" wrote in message ... Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread except for Greg should be using Access, and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA, which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has its place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office users/developers in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers. While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat out-of-date (I can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all that he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be used to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no licensing fee for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The Jet engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based upon the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or databases which require a large concurrent number of users. -- HTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP .Net Developer What You Seek Is What You Get. You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn. |
#30
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I did not notice that it was cross-posted - it wasn't me wot done it, it
was the OP! Whilst that explains the presence of all you rabid dotnet-o-philes on the thread, my point still stands: people really shouldn't express opinions on something they know nothing about! Physician: Heal Thyself. -- HTH, Kevin Spencer Microsoft MVP ..Net Developer What You Seek Is What You Get. "Brian" wrote in message ... "Juan T. Llibre" wrote in message ... I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to pontificate here about the limitations of Access when clearly they don't know the first thing about it. Particularly when the message is cross-posted to dotnet newsgroups. Give us a frigging break ! If the topic is Access, please discuss it in the Access newsgroups, unless the topic refers to using Access in the .Net Framework environment. Juan T. Llibre ASP.NET MVP http://asp.net.do/foros/ Foros de ASP.NET en Español Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET... ====================== I did not notice that it was cross-posted - it wasn't me wot done it, it was the OP! Whilst that explains the presence of all you rabid dotnet-o-philes on the thread, my point still stands: people really shouldn't express opinions on something they know nothing about! |
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