Access or Visual Studio?

Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,

What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
allowed to give comments?

Yeah, that's what I meant.... ;-P

Sheesh!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Cor Ligthert" wrote in message
...
Kevin,

Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,

What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
allowed to give comments?

and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.

This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page?

I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other
kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it
has some additions)..

This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago
about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who
probably have forever only used one of both.

Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I have
not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better".

In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and
the knowledge of the ones who use the tools.

Just my thought,

Cor

Do you program with that logic?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" wrote in message
...
"Cor Ligthert" wrote in message
...
Kevin,

Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,

What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
allowed to give comments?

and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.

This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page?

I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other
kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it
has some additions)..

This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago
about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who
probably
have forever only used one of both.

Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I
have
not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better".

In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and
the knowledge of the ones who use the tools.

Just my thought,

Cor


Indeed. The most complicated stuff I ever wrote in any flavour of VB I
originally developed as classes in VBA. When someone wanted the
functionality as a DLL (for use on their web server) the classes converted
to VB6 with virtually no code changes whatsoever. Conversely, I often get
VB code and classes from free source code sites and convert them very
easily
for use in Access.

Maybe Kevin thinks that programming in any flavour of VB is not real
programming. However, since he is a self-confessed dotnet developer, this
seems unlikely: he should be quite used to the notion that what you get to
program these days is not a computer, it's what Microsoft wants you to
see,
filtered through any number of layers of their infernal bloatware. None
of
it is real programming, not like wot we used to do in the old days, with
proper compilers and real binaries and so on. Ah, happy days.

If Kevin wants to come over all macho and do real programming, he'll have
to
convert to the Linux/open source crowd. Kinda hard to put food on the
table, though. Or, he could just shut up and accept that the best tool
for
the job is the best tool for the job, and who the hell cares whether it's
"programming" according to some half-baked definition or other.

In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a
properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET
application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application
which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who
have
learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception
because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database
applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them
around.

Interesting point of view. An Access database application is just that: a
database application. Now, let's have a look at the CLR - tens of thousands
of classes that do nearly everything that can be done with a computer, a
network, a portable device, etc. So, in essence you're saying that it takes
as much skill to build a house as it takes to architect a skyscraper,
perhaps more?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"idi_amin" wrote in message
...
Hi, let me clarify what i mean by "multiuser", i mean several dozen
concurrent users and up. This assumes that the Access application is
designed correctly of course. Which i think maybe the root of a lot of
conflicting opinions here. Even more than .NET development, theres a very
wide range of skill among Access developers. Just as an inexperienced
ASP.NET programmer might build a horrible web application and then blame
ASP.NET itself for its failings, the same thing is even more prone to
happen
in Access, precisely because its so easy to slap together a form that can
do
something useful. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of terribly designed
Access apps which many of us have had to deal with, because the guy in
Accounting who put this neat database together probably didnt care too
much
about relational table design, security, handling ongoing deployments,
code
reuse, backups, transactions, or concurrency.

In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a
properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET
application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application
which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who
have
learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception
because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database
applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them
around.

JMHO,
idi_amin/Premier JiangZemin
-.NET guy who uses Access all the time, enduring the laughter of Oracle
and
SQL DBAs

"SusanV" wrote:

You wrote:
q
I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
/q

Why?

Susan

"JiangZemin" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I disagree with the idea that once you start developing forms in
Access,
its
difficult to move the backend up to SQL. Depending on how the app is
build,
its not very difficult at all to upsize an Access application from
using
JET
to SQL.

If youre talking about completely moving away from Access front-end
development, yeah, then youd have to rewrite a lot of your code. But
its
the same situation if you were to abandon .NET forms as your front end
too.
However, one advantage of using .NET approach is you can properly layer
your
application so that if you do decide to change the front end, it can be
a
lot easier to handle situations where the front-end changes. Access
doesnt
easily allow you to structure your projects to promote reuse. But in
a
smaller, ad-hoc database project its probably fastest to develop.

My biggest hassle with Access development involve handling deployments
of
front-end and Office versioning issues. As far as how easy it is to do
reports, look into Sql Reporting Services, it can import existing
Access
reports. Its pretty easy to use (dont know about labels tho). But
theres
nothing stopping you from building your database app using .NET, and
having
an Access db solely for queries/reports/labels.

I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...

HTH,
Premier JiangZemin

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)"
wrote
in
message ...
Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in
Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard
to
divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database,
like
SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.

If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only,
you
can switch to another database without much pain.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***********************************************
Think outside the box!
***********************************************
"Jerome" wrote in message
...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would
I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's
in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right?
And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" wrote in
message news:%

1. Access is a horrible platform for large databases. While it can get to
a rather large size, it is a file based DB, which means perf degrades
horribly.

Actually, in single user mode a JET based file application is faster then
sql
server. I am going to repeat this again just in case you think this was a
type-o. The JET engine is faster then sql server!!! Anywhere from 30 to
200% faster. Remember, sql server has a ton of
overhead, and JET simply scrapes data right off of the disk drive.

Further, you seem to imply that you don't have a choice of what data engine
to use. Remember, ms-access is just a ide. It is a ide like visual studio.
You write code, you build forms, you build class objects. The data engine
you use with ms-access can be JET, or it can be sq server. There are
companies
out there with 1000 simultaneous users of ms-access all hitting the SAME
database. The fact of the matter sql server runs no different if you code
in c++, or use ms-access (they both are using the same oleDB library).
You can scale the applications to 100's of users in all cases when you use
sql
server.

However, the fact remains that JET grabs records faster then sql
server (we taking same hardware....no network involved here). In fact, to
normally grab data from sql server you still (on a local host) have to grab
data through a socket connection, and that alone is going to slow things
down
(further, sql serve has to wrap most things in a transaction, and also use
timestamp
fields to ensure things are ATOMIC).

2. Access is great for single developers, but bad for team development. It
is difficult to impossible to get a team working on the same solution,
unless Access is merely a data repository.

Remember, the coding environment in ms-access is the same as VB6. You can
create calls objects in ms-access, and this does help in the re-usability
area. Also, Visual Source Safe also works with ms-access also. So, I am just
point out that ms-access is not a database at all, and all of the
development trappings such as using visual source safe etc does work with
ms-access. If you want to use VSS, and have users check in/ check out
code, the you can do so with ms-access. So, I think for this discussion
it
is impart to distinguish between the
database part, and the IDE that ms-access is.

The database part that you use with ms-access can be the file based JET
engine, or you can use sql server.

Having said the above, as a project does get larger, then coding approaches
used, and things like considering a 3 tried approach to the application does
favor using Visual studio, source code control, and a language like .net, or
even c++. However, to use c++ for writing a average business application
is kind like writing some calculations in assembler to add a few numbers
when you got Excel sitting on your desktop. However, for real-time fluid
calculations
that c, or assembler would be a good choice.

Note that the same arguments can be made
against VB6 in this regards of project size. So, yes, I do agree with you
that project size is most certainly a consideration here. I have to agree
that as a project scales to MANY developers, then the fact of reduced
development speed becomes less of a factor, and things like using a OO
approach in terms of design and modeling code most certainly does
become an advantage in other IDE's. (.net for example!!) However, it also
needs pointing out that the MAJORITY of bussing applications written today
do NOT HUGELY benefit form the large use of a OO approach. However,
more and more business applications do benefit from a general OO approach.
With
..net gaining traction in the marketplace, then the OO approach becomes more
common.


3. Access creates monolithic applications, which means there is little
flexibility in distributing the work as your company grows.

This is a interesting aspect. Virtually all ms-access developers now split
their
code/forms away from the data part. You create what is called a mde in
ms-access
(essentially a compiled version of the application). This means to update a
user, you simply send them the new mde, and they copy it over the old one
Since the application has no data..then this works great. In fact,
ms-access developers have enjoyed this x-copy development process for years.
You now hear today .net developers singing the praise of x-copy development.
I
just last week deployed a whole version of my software to 5 different
companies (and, they were in a different city then me!!). To deploy this new
software, all the users had to do was copy the application to their
computers..and away they went (I did wrap the mde in a Inno install..and
send them a .exe to run). However, this band new "singing" of the praise
by .net developers of how you can simply copy the application part to the
users
computer and it runs has been a feature, and part of the landscape for
ms-access developers for a long time. There is no question that many
arm-chair ms-access developers make the mistake of not splitting out the
code/forms/logic from the data, .but as a general rule, ms-access developers
do not keep the data part, and application part as one monolithic
application.
This decision is not the fault of the ms-access design, but that of the
developers using the product. So, while .net users sing the praise of x-copy
development and deployment...we had that great feature for years!


Access certainly fits a niche. It has a wonderful designer and allows you
to leverage your work with forms, queries, reports, etc. Much of the work
can be done without a huge amount of code. But, you pay a price, as you
lock yourself into the Access solution. If you later outgrow, you end up
rewriting everything.

The outgrow part you mention has to be defined here. Do you mean the data
part, or the application complex part? The data part is easy, you just move
the back end data part to Oracle, sql-server, or whatever your favorite
data
engine tends to be. The application part is a fair issue you bring up. Once
again, as a developer I do commonly now use, and built class objects in
ms-access. However, you can't use ms-access to build the middle tier in a 3
tiered applications (apparently, there is a com add in for ms-access..but I
don't think it is appropriate use here). And, ms-access does support xml,
and
also has the soap tool kit add-in. With the soap kit, ms-access can now
easily consume ..net services.

I have to say that the MAJORITY of small business applications written don't
need more
then a few developers. However, if the product you are crating is to be
widely distributed, and you want a reduction in dependencies, and you expect
to have a large development team, then ms-access is a weak choice. However,
it is VERY difficult to outgrow ms-access in terms of a large database
(since
you just move the data to a server based product).

Once again, I am not saying ms-access should be use for all projects. And,to
be fair, ms-access works well in a two tiered approach, but not much well in
a 3 tiered approach. However, again, if you only got 30 -200 users, then
a two tiered approach (ms-access/sql server back end), then sql server and
ms-access will hardly break out a sweat. For larger user counts, and
applications with larger amounts of business logic, then better environments
most certainly do exist then ms-access. The only question that remains is
when to choose what tools for the right job. As always, this is about the
right horse for the right course...


--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal

#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards, usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"




"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access
has
its
place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers
in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
out-of-date
(I
can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all
that
he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be
used
to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
licensing
fee
for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The
Jet
engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling
newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.

Yep, spot on.

"gerry" wrote in message
...
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"




"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access
has
its
place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers
in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
out-of-date
(I
can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in
all
that
he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can
be
used
to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
licensing
fee
for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The
Jet
engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above
trolling
newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.

You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.

I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for free
on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the interest
and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you, or
for any other self-appointed hall monitors.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" wrote in message
...
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"




"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access
has
its
place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers
in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
out-of-date
(I
can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in
all
that
he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can
be
used
to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
licensing
fee
for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The
Jet
engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling
newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.

Coming from you, Brian, I'll take that as a compliment. Please don't
disappoint me by saying anything nice or helpful.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" wrote in message
...
Yep, spot on.

"gerry" wrote in message
...
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"




"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access
has
its
place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers
in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
out-of-date
(I
can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in
all
that
he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can
be
used
to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
licensing
fee
for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The
Jet
engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are
based
upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above
trolling
newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.

"Juan T. Llibre" wrote in message
...

That's no excuse for cross-posting.

Hi Juan,

I seriously considered removing the .NET groups, but that would have
eliminated the audience that I was answering. For the same reason, I see
that you didn't eliminate them either. :-p g

After all, this is a great forum for the discussion of ideas and the
elimination of misinterpreted notions.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access

"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...

It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.

VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and VBA
without any real expertise there.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access