Access or Visual Studio?

Excellent, you can now be discounted as an expert on programming, well done!

--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access


"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
SNIP
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
SNIP

Agreed on all points, but this whole thread has begun to lose it's appeal as
the trolls attempt to close in for the non-existent kill...

Enjoyed it while it was civil though!

;-)

Susan

"idi_amin" wrote in message
...
I agree with you, Access is ideal for many scenarios. There is nothing
wrong
with the tool itself (at least the client IDE/reporting/querying part, i
think there are a number of issues with using it as a backend DB, but even
those may not matter depending on your needs).

It seems to me that the Access vs. VS.NET "argument" is between two
equally
valid and effective toolsets, just different paradigms deployments and
thick vs. thin client. In that light it is silly to point to one paradigm
or
another as "not being a serious development environment".

-idi_amin

"SusanV" wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in
.NET?
I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult
to
learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be
the
be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least
learn
by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's
ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and
support are minimal.

Just my 2 cents...

Susan

This is my last contribution to this thread, as it was cross-posted to the
ASP.Net newsgroups, where I participate daily, and my replies are being
wildly misinterpreted by some people that reside in the Access newsgroups
(for those of you there, you have my sympathies).

I am addressing those who are reasonable in that group, in order to clear up
any confusion caused by my attackers:

1. I love Access. For the type of database that it is, it is the best in the
business. I have written many applications that use Access as a back-end.
2. VBA is a language for extending existing applications, not for writing
applications. This is not a qualitative statement. VBA is excellent for what
it was designed for.
3. The Jet engine is fast and efficient, and like Access, for the type of
database that it works with, it is the best in the business.

As for those who have been attacking me, again, I address those reasonable
ones in the Access group: You have my sympathies.

--
ta-ta,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
I suffer fools. Just not gladly.

"Terry Kreft" wrote in message
...
Excellent, you can now be discounted as an expert on programming, well
done!

--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access


"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
SNIP
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
SNIP

kid ?


"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been
watching
your posts on these groups for long enough

Afraid not kid. You're not old enough to have seen all of my posts.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" wrote in message
...
excuse me ?
what exactly did I assume ?
what 'logic' are you referring to ?
who said I programmed at all ?

I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I
have
to assume that you took some offence to my post.
you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
how does that definition not apply to what you said ?

and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been
watching
your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I
see
from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of
helping.

self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to
tell
people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash
because
it
doesn't happen to coincide with your own.

HTH ? ya right



"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.

I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for
free
on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the
interest
and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you,
or
for any other self-appointed hall monitors.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" wrote in message
...
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of
attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"




"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Spencer" wrote in
message
...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It
uses
VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with
all
the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
Access
has
its
place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers
in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
out-of-date
(I
can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct
in
all
that
he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database
can
be
used
to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
licensing
fee
for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app.
The
Jet
engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are
based
upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases,
or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above
trolling
newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.

spot on

"Paul Overway" wrote in message
...
Perceptions and projections aside, if your statment below doesn't
denigrate
Access and Access developers, you need writing lessons, a course on
manners....or maybe Haldol.

"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has
its place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers in mind, and is nearly perfect for such
users/developers.


--
Paul Overway
Logico Solutions
http://www.logico-solutions.com


"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."

As to my "implication," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know
what I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.

As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and
have
no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
opinion speaks for itself.

Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.

--
Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Paul Overway" wrote in message
...
I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in
VBA is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers.
Based on your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone
can see you're a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't
know it already.

--
Paul Overway
Logico Solutions
http://www.logico-solutions.com


"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a
minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
am in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access
and
VBA
without any real expertise there.

A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
haven't seen any "denigration" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
"denigration" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks.
We
talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good"
or
"bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a
tool.,
As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.

As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products
for many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT,
Windows 2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2
books
on databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#,
VBScript, VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I
have written ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms
applications in both native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts,
Macros, Services, XML Web Services, managed Direct3D applications,
console applications, Access applications, Visual FoxPro applications,
applications that use Modems, serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and
services, UDP clients and services, and, well, darn, I don't have them
all written down somewhere, but let's hope that's sufficient.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Arvin Meyer" wrote in message
...
"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...

It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.

VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a
minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
am in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access
and
VBA
without any real expertise there.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access

"Brian" wrote in message
...
[Snip]
Hehehe, if you are worried about version problems, just wait and see what
happens when the dotnet framework has been through a few incarnations.

You may be right, but it does look like MS is doing a good job of keeping
the frameworks versioning tight so far, so I'd say that this comment is a
bit premature.

Don't be fooled by the fact that your dotnet app has the suffix "exe". A
freestanding binary program it is not.

Umm, the only "freestanding binary program" on your computer is your BIOS.
Everything else is just layers put on top of layers. Each layer adds
overhead, and each layer provides useful services and abstractions. At some
point we may reach a layer too far, but I don't think we're there yet.

In fact, it is so far from being a freestanding binary program that you
have to use an obfuscator to deter
people from nicking your code!

And a disassembler won't work against a "freestanding binary program"? .NET
does make it easier to disassemble a program, but that is because the CLR
needs to be able to easily verify that the code won't do anything nasty. We
have a tradeoff between byte code complexity, security, and performance.
Moving one of those components requires that at least one of the other two
shift in a detrimental manner. Given the problems facing us with security
and viruses, and given the speed of todays hardware, I'm quite happy to
sacrifice a bit of performance and obfuscation for increased security.

As to your assertion about people nicking your code, have you ever tried to
work out what's happenning in a large undocumented, uncommented piece of
source code? Not fun, and certainly not easy.

Kevin,
We here in the Access newsgroups are a bit of a different breed.
We try to be polite and do not resort to name calling.

--
HTH
-------
Dan Artuso, MVP


"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message ...
I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."

As to my "implication," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know what
I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.

As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and have
no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
opinion speaks for itself.

Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.

--
Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Paul Overway" wrote in message
...
I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in
VBA is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers. Based
on your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone can see
you're a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't know it
already.

--
Paul Overway
Logico Solutions
http://www.logico-solutions.com


"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...
VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
VBA
without any real expertise there.

A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
haven't seen any "denigration" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
"denigration" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We
talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or
"bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool.,
As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.

As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products for
many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT, Windows
2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books on
databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#, VBScript,
VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I have written
ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms applications in
both native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts, Macros, Services, XML
Web Services, managed Direct3D applications, console applications, Access
applications, Visual FoxPro applications, applications that use Modems,
serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and services, UDP clients and
services, and, well, darn, I don't have them all written down somewhere,
but let's hope that's sufficient.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Arvin Meyer" wrote in message
...
"Kevin Spencer" wrote in message
...

It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.

VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
VBA
without any real expertise there.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access

"Sean Hederman" wrote in message
...
"Brian" wrote in message
...
[Snip]
Hehehe, if you are worried about version problems, just wait and see
what
happens when the dotnet framework has been through a few incarnations.

You may be right, but it does look like MS is doing a good job of keeping
the frameworks versioning tight so far, so I'd say that this comment is a
bit premature.


As is yours, because it hasn't been through enough versions or major
upgrades yet to give real headaches. Microsoft's track record with other
products suggests that major upgrades always break something that used to
work. Of more concern, however, is the situation when the beast is, say,
5-10 years old and developers have to target an unpredictable heterogeneous
population of framework versions and need to make their app work with all of
them. It's a problem that Access developers struggle with (hence the OP's
comments), and I don't expect it to be any different with the dotnet
framework.

Don't be fooled by the fact that your dotnet app has the suffix "exe".
A
freestanding binary program it is not.

Umm, the only "freestanding binary program" on your computer is your BIOS.
Everything else is just layers put on top of layers. Each layer adds
overhead, and each layer provides useful services and abstractions. At
some
point we may reach a layer too far, but I don't think we're there yet.


You attack a straw man. It was the OP who introduced the term
"freestanding" to describe a dotnet app, not me. I was merely pointing out
the error in his interpretation.

In any case, there are lots of genuine binary programs on my computer.
Freestanding they may not be in an absolute sense, but, being real binaries,
they are of a quite different nature to a dotnet app (or, indeed, an Access
app or a VB6 app).

In fact, it is so far from being a freestanding binary program that you
have to use an obfuscator to deter
people from nicking your code!

And a disassembler won't work against a "freestanding binary program"?
..NET
does make it easier to disassemble a program, but that is because the CLR
needs to be able to easily verify that the code won't do anything nasty.
We
have a tradeoff between byte code complexity, security, and performance.
Moving one of those components requires that at least one of the other two
shift in a detrimental manner. Given the problems facing us with security
and viruses, and given the speed of todays hardware, I'm quite happy to
sacrifice a bit of performance and obfuscation for increased security.


Again you attack a straw man. I was merely illustrating to the OP the
fallacy in his assumptions about dotnet.

As to your assertion about people nicking your code, have you ever tried
to
work out what's happenning in a large undocumented, uncommented piece of
source code? Not fun, and certainly not easy.


I've done it lots. Quite enjoy it, actually.

Allow me to correct myself. The OP used the term "independent", not
"freestanding". The sense is the same, though.

"Otis Mukinfus" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:34:23 -0400, "SusanV"
wrote:

It probably won't surprise you to know that their are accomplished
developers
like me who find the Access application development features difficult to
use
and learn. Perhaps that's because I have done a couple of gigs where the
users
in an organization had multiple home grown Access applications they wanted
converted to applications using MS SQL server. Not a pretty sight ;o)

I use Access all the time when I need a readily deployable database that
doesn't
have multiple users, but I don't and won't make applications with it.


In which case, you are missing a great opportunity, and you are spending far
too much time and money developing database apps.

I have lots of real-world customers using real apps developed in Access,
some of them using an Access/Jet back-end, others using SQL Server. Many of
them would never have been willing/able to pay for the considerable
additional effort of building their apps with a less productive technology.

It is hardly the fault of Access that lots of apps have been built by people
with no technical skills and no idea how to design a database or an app.
It's pretty easy to swing a hammer, but you can't blame the tool if you hit
your thumb with it.

It does surprise me greatly to learn that "there are accomplished
developers...who find the Access application development features difficult
to use and learn." As someone who came to Access in the late nineties after
15 years developing database apps with all kinds of languages and
technologies, I found the concepts very readily understandable and the
necessary skills very readily transferable. I was doing VB/SQL Server work
at the time, but having blagged my way onto an Access job I found it pretty
straightforward to get to grips with.