Excel 2003: RAND and RANDBETWEEN functions

Hi all.

I just wanted to give you some information on this concern direct from
Microsoft. In addition, this problem was mentioned in Woody's Watch, and we
wanted to provide some speaking points to that piece.

Microsoft has recently learned of a flaw that affects random number returns
in Microsoft Office Excel 2003's RAND and RANDBETWEEN function. In some
cases, this may result in inaccurate data. Microsoft is currently in the
process of developing and testing a fix for the Excel flaw, which will be
made available to customers worldwide in the near future.

How did such a glaring bug survive the in-house testing that was presumably
done?

Microsoft makes every effort to identify and fix software bugs prior to
product shipment, but these reports are the reality of software
development. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new customer
connection tools, for example, Microsoft is able to better respond to
feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.

Why were multiple notifications of this problem to Microsoft ignored? The
bug is easily replicated so there would seem to be no good reason for the
issue not to have been escalated promptly. We are still investigating what
reports were actually received by Microsoft. At present it appears that
certainly we weren't aware of this
prior to RTM, which would have enabled us to fix the bug much earlier.

What steps will Microsoft take to fix this bug and advise customers of the
solution? Microsoft is currently in the process of developing and testing a
fix for the Excel flaw, which will be made available to customers worldwide
in the near future.

What steps will Microsoft take to ensure that any future Excel problems are
properly addressed? Microsoft is continually looking for ways to improve
processes and make customers' software experience better. A key part of the
software development process is being able to involve customers in product
testing. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new customer
connection tools, for example, Microsoft is better able to respond to
customer feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.

Sincerely,

Rita Nikas
Microsoft MVP Lead
Microsoft Corporation

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Hi Rita!

Thanks for your efforts on this one. It's sure appreciated.

--
Regards
Norman Harker MVP (Excel)
Sydney, Australia

Excel and Word Function Lists (Classifications, Syntax and Arguments)
available free to good homes.
""Rita Nikas [MSFT]"" wrote in message
...
Hi all.

I just wanted to give you some information on this concern direct
from
Microsoft. In addition, this problem was mentioned in Woody's Watch,
and we
wanted to provide some speaking points to that piece.

Microsoft has recently learned of a flaw that affects random number
returns
in Microsoft Office Excel 2003's RAND and RANDBETWEEN function. In
some
cases, this may result in inaccurate data. Microsoft is currently in
the
process of developing and testing a fix for the Excel flaw, which
will be
made available to customers worldwide in the near future.

How did such a glaring bug survive the in-house testing that was
presumably
done?

Microsoft makes every effort to identify and fix software bugs prior
to
product shipment, but these reports are the reality of software
development. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new
customer
connection tools, for example, Microsoft is able to better respond
to
feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.

Why were multiple notifications of this problem to Microsoft
ignored? The
bug is easily replicated so there would seem to be no good reason
for the
issue not to have been escalated promptly. We are still
investigating what
reports were actually received by Microsoft. At present it appears
that
certainly we weren't aware of this
prior to RTM, which would have enabled us to fix the bug much
earlier.

What steps will Microsoft take to fix this bug and advise customers
of the
solution? Microsoft is currently in the process of developing and
testing a
fix for the Excel flaw, which will be made available to customers
worldwide
in the near future.

What steps will Microsoft take to ensure that any future Excel
problems are
properly addressed? Microsoft is continually looking for ways to
improve
processes and make customers' software experience better. A key part
of the
software development process is being able to involve customers in
product
testing. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new
customer
connection tools, for example, Microsoft is better able to respond
to
customer feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.

Sincerely,

Rita Nikas
Microsoft MVP Lead
Microsoft Corporation

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.

""Rita Nikas [MSFT]"" wrote...
....
How did such a glaring bug survive the in-house testing that was
presumably done?

Microsoft makes every effort to identify and fix software bugs prior to
product shipment, but these reports are the reality of software
development. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new customer
connection tools, for example, Microsoft is able to better respond to
feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.
....

Granted bugs happen, but this shouldn't have survived standard regression
testing, if your QA people do regression testing. Unlike mny bugs, the RAND
bug is glaring - it returns negative values after many recalculations. The
only way to have missed it would be not to have run many recalculations.

What steps will Microsoft take to ensure that any future Excel problems
are properly addressed? Microsoft is continually looking for ways to
improve processes and make customers' software experience better. A key
part of the software development process is being able to involve
customers in product testing.
....

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...GP11.phx.gb l

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...GP09.phx. gbl

Microsoft will let users test, but it won't tell them what they're testing.

OK, it was a mistake, and Microsoft wants to rectify it. Wonderful. So
what's Microsoft's position on the inconsistencies in the SLOPE, INTERCEPT
and FORECAST worksheet functions that have been much discussed over the last
week? And what, exactly, is the bug reporting process that users should
follow? And what are Microsoft's procedures for acknowledging bugs? Is there
a Microsoft web site that lists all recently reported and as yet unfixed
bugs as there is with almost all large open source projects?

Hi!

I am the one who reported this bug to Woody's Watch. I can tell you that
I only did so after reporting the bug to Microsoft at least 3 times and
receiving absolutely no acknowledgement whatsoever. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

I am not a Microsoft basher, but rather a long-time user and Excel "fan"
as well as a VBA consultant. Please take my criticisms as constructive:

1) It is not easy to figure out how to report a "bug" to Microsoft. I
have always been amazed at how defensive some software companies are
about bugs. As a developer (albeit on a lilliputian scale next to you),
I depend on my customers to find bugs and I make it super easy for them
to report such so that I can take care of the problems ASAP.

2) Unless one has some "pull" (i.e., one is a journalist or VIP or
insider) one is ignored completely by MSFT. This is counterproductive.
A simple acknowledgement would be nice. When the problem is a severe
bug, some follow through should be forthcoming. Stonewalling only causes
frustration and MORE not less negative publicity, and futhers the
conception that you guys don't care. Quite frankly, if Woody's watch and
others Excel VIPS that I personally emailed did not make a fuss, it is
evident that you would have probably ignored this particular problem
until a BIG problem occurred or someone of sufficient stature (other
than little ol' me) reported it independently.

3) Those people who will be affected by the bug are probably those who
are running sophisticated models. While it is nice that you have
acknowledged the bug here in a forum, it is inexcusable that you have
not publically warned your power users that their calculations may be at
risk, nor have you offered a wordaround. This is especially insensitive
because you have publically touted the advantages of the "new and
improved" RAND() function in your public literature. I hope a bridge
doesn't collapse....

Nuff said. I hope that this problem will be fixed soon.

Best,

Earl Takasaki
EXCELent Consulting




Rita Nikas [MSFT] wrote:
Hi all.

I just wanted to give you some information on this concern direct from
Microsoft. In addition, this problem was mentioned in Woody's Watch, and we
wanted to provide some speaking points to that piece.

Microsoft has recently learned of a flaw that affects random number returns
in Microsoft Office Excel 2003's RAND and RANDBETWEEN function. In some
cases, this may result in inaccurate data. Microsoft is currently in the
process of developing and testing a fix for the Excel flaw, which will be
made available to customers worldwide in the near future.

How did such a glaring bug survive the in-house testing that was presumably
done?

Microsoft makes every effort to identify and fix software bugs prior to
product shipment, but these reports are the reality of software
development. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new customer
connection tools, for example, Microsoft is able to better respond to
feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.

Why were multiple notifications of this problem to Microsoft ignored? The
bug is easily replicated so there would seem to be no good reason for the
issue not to have been escalated promptly. We are still investigating what
reports were actually received by Microsoft. At present it appears that
certainly we weren't aware of this
prior to RTM, which would have enabled us to fix the bug much earlier.

What steps will Microsoft take to fix this bug and advise customers of the
solution? Microsoft is currently in the process of developing and testing a
fix for the Excel flaw, which will be made available to customers worldwide
in the near future.

What steps will Microsoft take to ensure that any future Excel problems are
properly addressed? Microsoft is continually looking for ways to improve
processes and make customers' software experience better. A key part of the
software development process is being able to involve customers in product
testing. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new customer
connection tools, for example, Microsoft is better able to respond to
customer feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.

Sincerely,

Rita Nikas
Microsoft MVP Lead
Microsoft Corporation

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

"Earl Takasaki" wrote...
....
1) It is not easy to figure out how to report a "bug" to Microsoft. I
have always been amazed at how defensive some software companies are
about bugs. . . .

Standard procedure seems to be to call MSFT customer support and PAY for the
priviledge of reporting bugs. That fits in well with Microsoft's corporate
vision: make the customer pay, and pay, and pay, and pay, . . .

3) Those people who will be affected by the bug are probably those who
are running sophisticated models. While it is nice that you have
acknowledged the bug here in a forum, it is inexcusable that you have
not publically warned your power users that their calculations may be at
risk, nor have you offered a wordaround. . . .

Disclosure shouldn't be limited to power users. Compare MSFT's modus
operendi with respect to bugs with that of most if not all open source
software projects. MSFT discloses next to nothing. See if there's any
mention of this problem with RAND in XL2003 in the KnowledgeBase yet (there
isn't as of 14:40 PST 27 Dec 2003), even though Rita acknowledged this as a
problem over a week ago. Rita's posting is likely all MSFT plans on
releasing.

Look at the web sites of any open source project. Current bugs are listed
fairly prominently. For example, OpenOffice,

http://www.openoffice.org

in which the link to Bugs & Issues is easily found in the upper-left corner
of the page. Then look at Office's main page,

http://office.microsoft.com/home/default.aspx

and see if you find a link to anything resembling a bug or problem listing.
It doesn't exist because MSFT won't admit errors of any kind until they're
blatantly obvious and thoroughly reported.

Hi Harlan.

I apologize for not responding sooner as I was on vacation for the
holidays. I thought I'd posted another message related to
SLOPE/INTERCEPT/FORECAST to the public NGs - I apologize for not doing so
earlier.

BTW, Jerry W. Lewis has also alerted me directly that STYEX is also
impacted.

Microsoft has recently learned of a flaw that affects results returned in
Microsoft Office Excel 2003's SLOPE, INTERCEPT, FORECAST, and STYEX
functions.
In some cases, this may result in inaccurate data. Microsoft is currently
in the process of developing and testing a fix for the Excel flaw, which
will be
made available to customers worldwide in the near future.

Unofficially, we are currently in the testing cycle of a possible fix. A KB
article should be forthcoming but we are not sure exactly when. Microsoft
recommends not using the SLOPE, INTERCEPT, or FORECASTfunctions in
Microsoft Office Excel 2003 until a patch is available.

Related to your questions:
What is the bug reporting process that users should follow? And what are
Microsoft's procedures for acknowledging bugs? Is there a Microsoft web
site that lists all recently reported and as yet unfixed bugs as there is
with almost all large open source projects?

The bug reporting process users should follow? Probably the fastest is to
contact Product Support Services by telephone for assistance. As far as
acknowledging bugs, this post does just that. And once some type of KB is
available, that will also serve to document the problem completely. We
don't have a web site (other than KB articles within the Microsoft KB) that
lists all recently reported and unfixed bugs. It is a good idea that I do
think we as a company should consider, so I will be sure to mention it to
my management.

Granted, it's a pain to have to wait on this, and it would have been nice
had we not had these problems to begin with. However, we are aware of them
and working as rapidly as we can to provide a solid fix to resolve this
situation - we just don't want to be too hasty so I appreciate your
patience until such time as a resolution is announced.

Sincerely,

Rita Nikas
Microsoft MVP Lead
Microsoft Corporation

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.


--------------------
| Subject: Excel 2003: RAND and RANDBETWEEN functions
| Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:35:06 GMT
|
| ""Rita Nikas [MSFT]"" wrote...
| ...
| How did such a glaring bug survive the in-house testing that was
| presumably done?
|
| Microsoft makes every effort to identify and fix software bugs prior to
| product shipment, but these reports are the reality of software
| development. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new customer
| connection tools, for example, Microsoft is able to better respond to
| feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.
| ...
|
| Granted bugs happen, but this shouldn't have survived standard regression
| testing, if your QA people do regression testing. Unlike mny bugs, the
RAND
| bug is glaring - it returns negative values after many recalculations. The
| only way to have missed it would be not to have run many recalculations.
|
| What steps will Microsoft take to ensure that any future Excel problems
| are properly addressed? Microsoft is continually looking for ways to
| improve processes and make customers' software experience better. A key
| part of the software development process is being able to involve
| customers in product testing.
| ...
|
|
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...GP11.phx.gb l
|
|
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...TNGP09.phx. g
bl
|
| Microsoft will let users test, but it won't tell them what they're
testing.
|
| OK, it was a mistake, and Microsoft wants to rectify it. Wonderful. So
| what's Microsoft's position on the inconsistencies in the SLOPE, INTERCEPT
| and FORECAST worksheet functions that have been much discussed over the
last
| week? And what, exactly, is the bug reporting process that users should
| follow? And what are Microsoft's procedures for acknowledging bugs? Is
there
| a Microsoft web site that lists all recently reported and as yet unfixed
| bugs as there is with almost all large open source projects?
|
|
|

Hi Earl.

As per my e-mail to you, I'd like to get complete information from you on
when and how you reported this problem to Microsoft. I don't find this
acceptable at all and will investigate so we can avoid problems like this
in the future

Sincerely,

Rita Nikas
Microsoft MVP Lead
Microsoft Corporation

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.


--------------------
| Subject: Excel 2003: RAND and RANDBETWEEN functions
| Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:08:04 GMT
|
| Hi!
|
| I am the one who reported this bug to Woody's Watch. I can tell you that
| I only did so after reporting the bug to Microsoft at least 3 times and
| receiving absolutely no acknowledgement whatsoever. Zero. Nada. Zilch.
|
| I am not a Microsoft basher, but rather a long-time user and Excel "fan"
| as well as a VBA consultant. Please take my criticisms as constructive:
|
| 1) It is not easy to figure out how to report a "bug" to Microsoft. I
| have always been amazed at how defensive some software companies are
| about bugs. As a developer (albeit on a lilliputian scale next to you),
| I depend on my customers to find bugs and I make it super easy for them
| to report such so that I can take care of the problems ASAP.
|
| 2) Unless one has some "pull" (i.e., one is a journalist or VIP or
| insider) one is ignored completely by MSFT. This is counterproductive.
| A simple acknowledgement would be nice. When the problem is a severe
| bug, some follow through should be forthcoming. Stonewalling only causes
| frustration and MORE not less negative publicity, and futhers the
| conception that you guys don't care. Quite frankly, if Woody's watch and
| others Excel VIPS that I personally emailed did not make a fuss, it is
| evident that you would have probably ignored this particular problem
| until a BIG problem occurred or someone of sufficient stature (other
| than little ol' me) reported it independently.
|
| 3) Those people who will be affected by the bug are probably those who
| are running sophisticated models. While it is nice that you have
| acknowledged the bug here in a forum, it is inexcusable that you have
| not publically warned your power users that their calculations may be at
| risk, nor have you offered a wordaround. This is especially insensitive
| because you have publically touted the advantages of the "new and
| improved" RAND() function in your public literature. I hope a bridge
| doesn't collapse....
|
| Nuff said. I hope that this problem will be fixed soon.
|
| Best,
|
| Earl Takasaki
| EXCELent Consulting
|
|
|
|
| Rita Nikas [MSFT] wrote:
| Hi all.
|
| I just wanted to give you some information on this concern direct from
| Microsoft. In addition, this problem was mentioned in Woody's Watch,
and we
| wanted to provide some speaking points to that piece.
|
| Microsoft has recently learned of a flaw that affects random number
returns
| in Microsoft Office Excel 2003's RAND and RANDBETWEEN function. In
some
| cases, this may result in inaccurate data. Microsoft is currently in
the
| process of developing and testing a fix for the Excel flaw, which will
be
| made available to customers worldwide in the near future.
|
| How did such a glaring bug survive the in-house testing that was
presumably
| done?
|
| Microsoft makes every effort to identify and fix software bugs prior to
| product shipment, but these reports are the reality of software
| development. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new
customer
| connection tools, for example, Microsoft is able to better respond to
| feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.
|
| Why were multiple notifications of this problem to Microsoft ignored?
The
| bug is easily replicated so there would seem to be no good reason for
the
| issue not to have been escalated promptly. We are still investigating
what
| reports were actually received by Microsoft. At present it appears that
| certainly we weren't aware of this
| prior to RTM, which would have enabled us to fix the bug much earlier.
|
| What steps will Microsoft take to fix this bug and advise customers of
the
| solution? Microsoft is currently in the process of developing and
testing a
| fix for the Excel flaw, which will be made available to customers
worldwide
| in the near future.
|
| What steps will Microsoft take to ensure that any future Excel problems
are
| properly addressed? Microsoft is continually looking for ways to
improve
| processes and make customers' software experience better. A key part of
the
| software development process is being able to involve customers in
product
| testing. Through new technologies such as Watson and the new customer
| connection tools, for example, Microsoft is better able to respond to
| customer feedback and fix bugs in a timely manner.
|
| Sincerely,
|
| Rita Nikas
| Microsoft MVP Lead
| Microsoft Corporation
|
| This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
|
|
|

Hi Harlan and Earl.

It is Microsoft policy to initially charge for support incidents. However,
if an issue is found to be a bug of some kind, the customer is entitled to
a full refund for the support incident. Other Microsoft support options are
outlined he

http://support.microsoft.com/default...z;%5Bln%5D;top

Online support is initially much less expensive as compared to telephone
support, so that might be more viable to more people, especially in a NG
environment where people are concerned that what they're seeing is a new
issue.

If using one of the above support options doesn't work or isn't available,
then another option might be to post a message, asking the MVPs to take a
look at a concern (if you suspect it's a bug). I'm in constant contact with
the MVPs, and they frequently let me know if there are NG issues needing
Microsoft investigation.

In all the communications I've had (since this issue has cropped up), I've
been in communication with development and others. We are definitely
planning on releasing an update and a Microsoft Knowledge Base article when
the adequately tested fix is available.

Sincerely,

Rita Nikas
Microsoft MVP Lead
Microsoft Corporation

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.


--------------------
| Subject: Excel 2003: RAND and RANDBETWEEN functions
| Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:53:44 GMT
|
| "Earl Takasaki" wrote...
| ...
| 1) It is not easy to figure out how to report a "bug" to Microsoft. I
| have always been amazed at how defensive some software companies are
| about bugs. . . .
|
| Standard procedure seems to be to call MSFT customer support and PAY for
the
| priviledge of reporting bugs. That fits in well with Microsoft's corporate
| vision: make the customer pay, and pay, and pay, and pay, . . .
|
| 3) Those people who will be affected by the bug are probably those who
| are running sophisticated models. While it is nice that you have
| acknowledged the bug here in a forum, it is inexcusable that you have
| not publically warned your power users that their calculations may be at
| risk, nor have you offered a wordaround. . . .
|
| Disclosure shouldn't be limited to power users. Compare MSFT's modus
| operendi with respect to bugs with that of most if not all open source
| software projects. MSFT discloses next to nothing. See if there's any
| mention of this problem with RAND in XL2003 in the KnowledgeBase yet
(there
| isn't as of 14:40 PST 27 Dec 2003), even though Rita acknowledged this as
a
| problem over a week ago. Rita's posting is likely all MSFT plans on
| releasing.
|
| Look at the web sites of any open source project. Current bugs are listed
| fairly prominently. For example, OpenOffice,
|
| http://www.openoffice.org
|
| in which the link to Bugs & Issues is easily found in the upper-left
corner
| of the page. Then look at Office's main page,
|
| http://office.microsoft.com/home/default.aspx
|
| and see if you find a link to anything resembling a bug or problem
listing.
| It doesn't exist because MSFT won't admit errors of any kind until they're
| blatantly obvious and thoroughly reported.
|
|
|

"Rita Nikas [MSFT]" wrote...
It is Microsoft policy to initially charge for support incidents. However,
if an issue is found to be a bug of some kind, the customer is entitled to
a full refund for the support incident. Other Microsoft support options are
outlined he

http://support.microsoft.com/default...z;%5Bln%5D;top
...

Bug reporting is support?!

To be fair, the first support call may be free, but what happens on the second
bug found? Does Microsoft just get credit card authorizations when users make
the first call to report a bug, or do you post the charge initially and credit
it later, thus taking advantage of the float either at the user's or their
credit card issuer's expense? [Rhetorical - I'd be very surprised indeed if you
were at liberty to make that public.]

That there is no direct way to report bugs in Microsoft software to Microsoft
free of *initial* charges other than posting to newsgroups and hoping & praying
that MVPs pass along the news to you or other individuals (who seem to take
holidays occasionally, so aren't always available) speaks for itself just how
much Microsoft wants to receive bug reports. No news is good news.

Hi Rita!

I'm sure that your actions on this are fully appreciated by all.

As far as the history goes, I think I'm right in saying that
**patent** action on this was only really forthcoming after the
problem was raised directly with you. You "kicked ass" to get things
moving along and also gave almost immediate public feedback, which you
have now updated.

That's not saying that nothing was being done before. But feedback and
updates soothe the savage beasts who suffer from these things.

--
Regards
Norman Harker MVP (Excel)
Sydney, Australia

Excel and Word Function Lists (Classifications, Syntax and Arguments)
available free to good homes.