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Gripe about Word and image placement



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 4th, 2004, 10:09 PM
Harlan Messinger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

I just sent the following to the MS wish list about a pet peeve of mine.
What do you all think about this flaw?

Over 15 years ago WordPerfect was smart enough to move an image or other
object to the top of the next page if the remainder of the current page
wasn't big enough to hold it--and to fill the remainder of the current page
with the text that had been typed in after the image. It was smart enough to
adjust references to these objects automatically: If the paragraph before
the image said "See the picture {below}", where {below} indicates a
reference code, then when the image moved to the next page, {below} would be
changed automatically to {on page X}. As text was added or deleted, the
reflowing occurred automatically, so that if the image once again could fit
directly where it had been inserted by the user, it would.

Why in the world, in all this time, has Microsoft not seen fit to do this
with Word? Does Microsoft really think it's attractive that when an image
two-thirds of a page high flows to the next page, it should leave a
quarter-page or half-page empty gap on the page before it? Or does Microsoft
think its users don't like word processing to be *too* automatic, that we
like manually moving our images around every time we revise our documents?

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

  #2  
Old June 5th, 2004, 12:14 AM
Jezebel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

Word does this already. RTFM, perhaps? Or do you just like griping?


"Harlan Messinger" wrote in message
...
I just sent the following to the MS wish list about a pet peeve of mine.
What do you all think about this flaw?

Over 15 years ago WordPerfect was smart enough to move an image or other
object to the top of the next page if the remainder of the current page
wasn't big enough to hold it--and to fill the remainder of the current

page
with the text that had been typed in after the image. It was smart enough

to
adjust references to these objects automatically: If the paragraph before
the image said "See the picture {below}", where {below} indicates a
reference code, then when the image moved to the next page, {below} would

be
changed automatically to {on page X}. As text was added or deleted, the
reflowing occurred automatically, so that if the image once again could

fit
directly where it had been inserted by the user, it would.

Why in the world, in all this time, has Microsoft not seen fit to do this
with Word? Does Microsoft really think it's attractive that when an image
two-thirds of a page high flows to the next page, it should leave a
quarter-page or half-page empty gap on the page before it? Or does

Microsoft
think its users don't like word processing to be *too* automatic, that we
like manually moving our images around every time we revise our documents?

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.



  #3  
Old June 5th, 2004, 09:24 PM
Cindy M -WordMVP-
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

Hi Jezebel,

Word does this already.

Only under some circumstances. Under others, it doesn't.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update
Sep 30 2003)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any
follow question or reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail
:-)

  #4  
Old June 5th, 2004, 09:24 PM
Cindy M -WordMVP-
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

Hi Harlan,

I've actually discussed this issue (and the related one about keeping a
picture on a certain page), in person, with people on the Word team. It's not
that they don't know there's a problem. Or even feel it would be nice to fix
it.

What's getting in the way is how Word was originally designed to work. (And
WordPerfect was designed quite differently, just BTW) Word was conceived as a
word processing application, primarily concerned with dynamic text flow.
"Floating" graphics are foreign objects for the text flow, that the text flow
has to deal with; this requires certain "compromises". For one thing, any
object has to be attached to a paragraph, and when that paragraph moves to a
new page, the graphic moves with it.

Text also cannot flow past graphics that stretch across the entire width of
the page.

And the real obstacles come from when and how the layout triggers. Basically,
trying to incorporate maximum graphics flexibility would mean that Word could
end up never being able to finish laying out a page because the graphic
positioning and reflowing of the text would go into a loop.

Word's layouting capability has improved tremendously in the last decade, but
it remains a word processing application. For more demanding layouting, you
need to use an application designed to do just that. Publisher or PageMaker,
just for example.

Over 15 years ago WordPerfect was smart enough to move an image or other
object to the top of the next page if the remainder of the current page
wasn't big enough to hold it--and to fill the remainder of the current page
with the text that had been typed in after the image. It was smart enough to
adjust references to these objects automatically: If the paragraph before
the image said "See the picture {below}", where {below} indicates a
reference code, then when the image moved to the next page, {below} would be
changed automatically to {on page X}. As text was added or deleted, the
reflowing occurred automatically, so that if the image once again could fit
directly where it had been inserted by the user, it would.

Why in the world, in all this time, has Microsoft not seen fit to do this
with Word? Does Microsoft really think it's attractive that when an image
two-thirds of a page high flows to the next page, it should leave a
quarter-page or half-page empty gap on the page before it? Or does Microsoft
think its users don't like word processing to be *too* automatic, that we
like manually moving our images around every time we revise our documents?


Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Sep 30 2003)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail :-)

  #5  
Old June 6th, 2004, 01:26 AM
Jezebel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

Of course, you're right. But that's true of nearly everything. It doesn't
work at all under water.


"Cindy M -WordMVP-" wrote in message
news:VA.00009a24.007f4116@speedy...
Hi Jezebel,

Word does this already.

Only under some circumstances. Under others, it doesn't.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update
Sep 30 2003)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any
follow question or reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail
:-)



  #6  
Old June 6th, 2004, 11:07 AM
Cindy M -WordMVP-
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

Hi Jezebel,

Of course, you're right. But that's true of nearly everything. It doesn't
work at all under water.

I'm considering how to best say what I want to say...

I guess it depends on what your purpose is, replying to postings in these
groups? I've seen various motivations in the eight years I've done it:
- a compulsion to help
- showing off
- wanting to repay for receiving help
- a simple love of answering questions
- a need to interact with others

No matter what the motivation, something that's very important to me,
personally, is that the information given is as accurate as possible. Even
if the original poster isn't going to listen, someone else may come along
with a similar concern and actually want a useful/factual reply.

Of course, these groups are what the collective makes them. No one can
dictate the content or attitude in the messages. And I'd be one of the
first to howl if anyone tried g But you have so much to offer, that it
always hurts me when I see such a back-handed slap in the face as an
answer.

Word does this already.

Only under some circumstances. Under others, it doesn't.



Cindy Meister

  #7  
Old June 6th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Jezebel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

I'm sorry you see that as a slap in the face. Or a Surbiton Fish Dance?
Seriously, it wasn't meant as such. Entschuldigung.


"Cindy M -WordMVP-" wrote in message
news:VA.00009a38.009717ee@speedy...
Hi Jezebel,

Of course, you're right. But that's true of nearly everything. It

doesn't
work at all under water.

I'm considering how to best say what I want to say...

I guess it depends on what your purpose is, replying to postings in these
groups? I've seen various motivations in the eight years I've done it:
- a compulsion to help
- showing off
- wanting to repay for receiving help
- a simple love of answering questions
- a need to interact with others

No matter what the motivation, something that's very important to me,
personally, is that the information given is as accurate as possible. Even
if the original poster isn't going to listen, someone else may come along
with a similar concern and actually want a useful/factual reply.

Of course, these groups are what the collective makes them. No one can
dictate the content or attitude in the messages. And I'd be one of the
first to howl if anyone tried g But you have so much to offer, that it
always hurts me when I see such a back-handed slap in the face as an
answer.

Word does this already.

Only under some circumstances. Under others, it doesn't.



Cindy Meister



  #8  
Old June 7th, 2004, 03:34 PM
Cindy M -WordMVP-
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

Hi Jezebel,

I'm sorry you see that as a slap in the face.

The "F" in RTFM gets my back-hairs up :-) Sorry if I
over-reacted.

Cindy Meister

  #9  
Old June 7th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Jezebel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

Hard to think of an alternative: "RTM" lacks a certain je ne sais quoi. I
thought back hairs were illegal in Switzerland?


"Cindy M -WordMVP-" wrote in message
news:VA.00009a52.003e4548@speedy...
Hi Jezebel,

I'm sorry you see that as a slap in the face.

The "F" in RTFM gets my back-hairs up :-) Sorry if I
over-reacted.

Cindy Meister



  #10  
Old June 8th, 2004, 03:26 AM
Harlan Messinger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gripe about Word and image placement

Cindy M -WordMVP- wrote:

Hi Harlan,

I've actually discussed this issue (and the related one about keeping a
picture on a certain page), in person, with people on the Word team. It's not
that they don't know there's a problem. Or even feel it would be nice to fix
it.

What's getting in the way is how Word was originally designed to work. (And
WordPerfect was designed quite differently, just BTW) Word was conceived as a
word processing application, primarily concerned with dynamic text flow.
"Floating" graphics are foreign objects for the text flow, that the text flow
has to deal with; this requires certain "compromises". For one thing, any
object has to be attached to a paragraph, and when that paragraph moves to a
new page, the graphic moves with it.

Text also cannot flow past graphics that stretch across the entire width of
the page.

And the real obstacles come from when and how the layout triggers. Basically,
trying to incorporate maximum graphics flexibility would mean that Word could
end up never being able to finish laying out a page because the graphic
positioning and reflowing of the text would go into a loop.


No doubt there could be heuristics to figure out that such a situation
has occurred and notify the user that the layout won't work as
requested.


Word's layouting capability has improved tremendously in the last decade, but
it remains a word processing application.


WordPerfect was a word processing application, and yet they made it
work. Your explanation doesn't really get into why Word can't do the
same thing.

For more demanding layouting, you
need to use an application designed to do just that. Publisher or PageMaker,
just for example.


Or, apparently, a competing pure word processing application named
WordPerfect. I shouldn't have to resort to Publisher or PageMaker: I
still only have one stream of text running from the beginning to the
end of the document. And the computations really aren't that
complicated. Word does figure out when it needs to put a graphic on
the next page. There shouldn't then be any difficulty back-filling
behind the graphic with the text that "follows" it. Let's put it this
way: I'm a programmer, and *I* can easily work out the algorithm for
this.

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.
 




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