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When I type fff the first two letters are closer than the last two



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 12th, 2005, 05:21 AM posted to microsoft.public.word,microsoft.public.word.general,microsoft.public.word.pagelayout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default When I type fff the first two letters are closer than the last two


"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
If I type three sets of "fff," I see more space between the first two f's in
the first group than in the other two and more space between the last two
f's in the last group than in the other two, which seems to confirm that
this is probably a rounding error. You still haven't told us why this is so
vital to you.


That information is currently proprietary. We haven't tracked down the exact
cause, if it was a rounding error, then it should have showed up in one of the
other applications. For now it looks like a bug. We have at least derived a
work-around. Turning Kerning on does make all of the spacing consistent. That is
an excellent step in the right direction. I appreciate all of the help.


--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:xT1nf.24603$QW2.14626@dukeread08...
I tried it again using {Times New Roman, Bold, Italic, 24-point}
I tried this typing "fff fff fff" and the problem did not occur on the
first "fff", only the second one and the third one.

It can be seen on the screen without pixel magnification. The right side

of the
cross line "t" portion of the first "f" is one pixel away from the the

left side
of the cross line "t" portion of the second "f" whereas this same distance
between the seond "f" and the third "f" is two pixels.

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
Well, it doesn't happen for me at 100% Zoom on a 17" Trinitron-type Dell

CRT
monitor at 1024 x 768. We don't know what kind of equipment and settings
Peter is using.

Perhaps it would help to know why this is an issue he cannot ignore.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the

newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Doug Robbins - Word MVP" wrote in message
...
While I don't know the answer to that particular question, I think that

we
CAN rule it out as being an MS Word issue as you suggest because it

does
not
happen in MS Word for either Suzanne, JoAnn, or the two different
computers
on which I have tried it.

As a result, the only conclusion that I can draw is that it is

something
peculiar to your setup - hardware or drivers.

--
Hope this helps.

Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my
services on a paid consulting basis.

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:n9_mf.23358$QW2.13366@dukeread08...

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
I've had issues with Publisher that didn't occur in other programs

and
they were video driver issues. And before you say that you are

talking
about Word,not Publisher, those two program do share certain

"quirks".

I will ask again - did you look at the file on another computer?

*IF*
it
appears on that computer as well, then it could be a ligature.*IF*

it
doesn't, they it could be a video driver issue. Sometimes you need

to
rule out a setting on your computer before you go blaming the

program.

How could it possibly be a video driver issue if notepad on the same
computer, and Non-italic in the same font on the same computer does

not
have this problem?

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]



"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:JLZmf.23188$QW2.20129@dukeread08...

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
I'd still suggest updating your video drivers.

I am 100% certain that it is not a video driver issue. Notepad does
not
do this MS Word does this. This proves that it is not a video

driver
issue. I think that it might be a ligature issue. It occurs in

Times
New
Roman-Bold-Italic-24 Point. It does not occur in the Non-Italic

form
of
this same font.


Does this problem appear on other computers?

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]



"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:S6Zmf.22939$QW2.22744@dukeread08...
It is not a display driver issue, it is an MS Word issue. When I

do
the same thing in notepad, the characters are evenly spaced. I

must
have an answer to this problem, it is not something that I can
ignore.

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
If it's a display issue only, then it's probably a video driver
issue
or an
issue with the display font. If it doesn't print that way, then

I
would
consider it not worth worrying about.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the
newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:LsYmf.22673$QW2.18131@dukeread08...

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
I'm not seeing that here, but possibly an AutoCorrect entry

has
been set
up
to substitute an ff ligature for two f's. This character is

not
present
in

It is working this way in a new blank document. I am referring

to
the
on-screen
image, not the printed image. This difference can only be seen
when
a
screen
capture is made and the pixels are examined.

most fonts (though some do contain the fi and fl ligatures),

but
it is
available in "expert" fonts and possibly in OpenType fonts
(though
not
necessarily accessible directly in Word's Symbol dialog. You
might
try
asking this question in the

microsoft.public.word.printingfonts
NG.

Note that two of the NGs you're posting to (.word and
.word.general)
have
been deprecated on the Microsoft server and so will not be
propagated to
some other news servers.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to

the
newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:XBXmf.22334$QW2.2560@dukeread08...
Why is it when I type fff in Bold Italic 24 Point Times New
Roman
that
the
first
two letters are closer together than the last two letters?

Thanks
























  #22  
Old December 12th, 2005, 06:22 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.pagelayout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default When I type fff the first two letters are closer than the last two

Triple forte.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
.. .
I gotta ask - what word are you using that has three f's in a row?

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]



"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
newsP2nf.24956$QW2.1760@dukeread08...

"LC Killingbeck" wrote in message
m...
"Peter Olcott" wrote in
news:CA1nf.24491$QW2.5329@dukeread08:

(1) I can't try it on another computer. The only other computer that I
have is identical to this one.
(2) The reasoning that I provided proves that it can't be the display
driver. (3) I am talking about a difference that is small enough that
you can't see it unless you look at the pixels enlarged sixteen times.

"Doug Robbins - Word MVP" wrote in message
...
While I don't know the answer to that particular question, I think
that we CAN rule it out as being an MS Word issue as you suggest
because it does not happen in MS Word for either Suzanne, JoAnn, or
the two different computers on which I have tried it.

As a result, the only conclusion that I can draw is that it is
something peculiar to your setup - hardware or drivers.

--
Hope this helps.

(snipped massive quotes and indentations)

Might well be that the "right" placement of the characters is about
1/2 of a pixel. As a result, rounding will move some characters
slightly to the left, and others slightly to the right. When
viewed with your particular maginfying glass, the spacing will be
non-uniform.

It is uniform in MS Publisher 98, MS Paint, MS NotePad, and even the

first
set of "fff" in MS Word, it is only non-uniform in the subsequent sets

of
"fff" in Ms Word.


If so, there is likely nothing you can really do about it. Change to
a different screen resolution will change the rounding properties,
and might fix this (or might make it worse!), and could well depend
on just where across the screen the characters are shown. But, if
your "ideal" display needs to place a character to begin 10.73
pixels from the left edge, and the next character 17.21 pixels from
the left edge - they are going to round the first up and the second
down, and move them closer together than your "ideal, infinite
resolution" display.

I'll call it a display hardware and/or display driver question.
Depending on _exactly_ how a particular software package uses that
hardware and that driver, can easily show different presentation
results, when view with your microscope. That likely explains any
Word versus Notepad difference.

How does all this print on something like a 600 DPI printer, by
the way? Printer resolutions are vastly more refined than any
display, so you will need a more powerful microscope to notice
any non-uniform spacing caused by rounding in the arithmetic.


Printouts look perfect.


Lynn Killingbeck






  #23  
Old December 12th, 2005, 10:09 AM posted to microsoft.public.word,microsoft.public.word.general,microsoft.public.word.pagelayout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default When I type fff the first two letters are closer than the last two

The reasoning only *suggests* that it is not the video display driver. It
doesn't *prove* it - because of the way different applications use the
screen driver to display fonts. It could equally be the printer driver as
Word (but not Notepad) works hand in glove with the current printer driver
to position text in the Word display area.

Unless you would care to enlighten us, I cannot see what practical
difference a one pixel change would have on a Word document, and if such
positioning is so crucial then Word is not the best tool for this type of
work. DTP would be closer to the mark.

--

Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org


Peter Olcott wrote:
(1) I can't try it on another computer. The only other computer that
I have is identical to this one.
(2) The reasoning that I provided proves that it can't be the display
driver. (3) I am talking about a difference that is small enough that
you can't see it unless you look at the pixels enlarged sixteen times.

"Doug Robbins - Word MVP" wrote in message
...
While I don't know the answer to that particular question, I think
that we CAN rule it out as being an MS Word issue as you suggest
because it does not happen in MS Word for either Suzanne, JoAnn, or
the two different computers on which I have tried it.

As a result, the only conclusion that I can draw is that it is
something peculiar to your setup - hardware or drivers.

--
Hope this helps.

Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my
services on a paid consulting basis.

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:n9_mf.23358$QW2.13366@dukeread08...

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
I've had issues with Publisher that didn't occur in other programs
and they were video driver issues. And before you say that you are
talking about Word,not Publisher, those two program do share
certain "quirks". I will ask again - did you look at the file on
another computer?
*IF* it appears on that computer as well, then it could be a
ligature.*IF* it doesn't, they it could be a video driver issue.
Sometimes you need to rule out a setting on your computer before
you go blaming the program.

How could it possibly be a video driver issue if notepad on the same
computer, and Non-italic in the same font on the same computer does
not have this problem?

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]



"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:JLZmf.23188$QW2.20129@dukeread08...

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
I'd still suggest updating your video drivers.

I am 100% certain that it is not a video driver issue. Notepad
does not do this MS Word does this. This proves that it is not a
video driver issue. I think that it might be a ligature issue. It
occurs in Times New Roman-Bold-Italic-24 Point. It does not occur
in the Non-Italic form of this same font.


Does this problem appear on other computers?

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]



"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:S6Zmf.22939$QW2.22744@dukeread08...
It is not a display driver issue, it is an MS Word issue. When
I do the same thing in notepad, the characters are evenly
spaced. I must have an answer to this problem, it is not
something that I can ignore. "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
wrote in message
...
If it's a display issue only, then it's probably a video
driver issue or an
issue with the display font. If it doesn't print that way,
then I would consider it not worth worrying about.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the
newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:LsYmf.22673$QW2.18131@dukeread08...

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
I'm not seeing that here, but possibly an AutoCorrect entry
has been set
up
to substitute an ff ligature for two f's. This character is
not present
in

It is working this way in a new blank document. I am
referring to the on-screen image, not the printed image. This
difference can only be seen when a screen capture is made and
the pixels are examined.
most fonts (though some do contain the fi and fl ligatures),
but it is
available in "expert" fonts and possibly in OpenType fonts
(though not
necessarily accessible directly in Word's Symbol dialog. You
might try
asking this question in the
microsoft.public.word.printingfonts NG. Note that two of the NGs
you're posting to (.word and
.word.general) have been deprecated on the Microsoft server
and so will not be propagated to
some other news servers.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to
the newsgroup so all may benefit.

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:XBXmf.22334$QW2.2560@dukeread08...
Why is it when I type fff in Bold Italic 24 Point Times New
Roman that the first
two letters are closer together than the last two letters?

Thanks



  #24  
Old December 12th, 2005, 06:19 PM posted to microsoft.public.word,microsoft.public.word.general,microsoft.public.word.pagelayout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default When I type fff the first two letters are closer than the last two

Unless you would care to enlighten us, I cannot see what practical
difference a one pixel change would have on a Word document, and if such


Especially since the difference appears only on screen, not in print.
Regardless of its ability to do a lot of "online" things, Word was
originally and is still basically a program for producing *printed*
documents.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Graham Mayor" wrote in message
...
The reasoning only *suggests* that it is not the video display driver. It
doesn't *prove* it - because of the way different applications use the
screen driver to display fonts. It could equally be the printer driver as
Word (but not Notepad) works hand in glove with the current printer driver
to position text in the Word display area.

Unless you would care to enlighten us, I cannot see what practical
difference a one pixel change would have on a Word document, and if such
positioning is so crucial then Word is not the best tool for this type of
work. DTP would be closer to the mark.

--

Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org


Peter Olcott wrote:
(1) I can't try it on another computer. The only other computer that
I have is identical to this one.
(2) The reasoning that I provided proves that it can't be the display
driver. (3) I am talking about a difference that is small enough that
you can't see it unless you look at the pixels enlarged sixteen times.

"Doug Robbins - Word MVP" wrote in message
...
While I don't know the answer to that particular question, I think
that we CAN rule it out as being an MS Word issue as you suggest
because it does not happen in MS Word for either Suzanne, JoAnn, or
the two different computers on which I have tried it.

As a result, the only conclusion that I can draw is that it is
something peculiar to your setup - hardware or drivers.

--
Hope this helps.

Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my
services on a paid consulting basis.

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:n9_mf.23358$QW2.13366@dukeread08...

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
I've had issues with Publisher that didn't occur in other programs
and they were video driver issues. And before you say that you are
talking about Word,not Publisher, those two program do share
certain "quirks". I will ask again - did you look at the file on
another computer?
*IF* it appears on that computer as well, then it could be a
ligature.*IF* it doesn't, they it could be a video driver issue.
Sometimes you need to rule out a setting on your computer before
you go blaming the program.

How could it possibly be a video driver issue if notepad on the same
computer, and Non-italic in the same font on the same computer does
not have this problem?

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]



"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:JLZmf.23188$QW2.20129@dukeread08...

"JoAnn Paules [MVP]" wrote in message
...
I'd still suggest updating your video drivers.

I am 100% certain that it is not a video driver issue. Notepad
does not do this MS Word does this. This proves that it is not a
video driver issue. I think that it might be a ligature issue. It
occurs in Times New Roman-Bold-Italic-24 Point. It does not occur
in the Non-Italic form of this same font.


Does this problem appear on other computers?

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]



"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:S6Zmf.22939$QW2.22744@dukeread08...
It is not a display driver issue, it is an MS Word issue. When
I do the same thing in notepad, the characters are evenly
spaced. I must have an answer to this problem, it is not
something that I can ignore. "Suzanne S. Barnhill"
wrote in message
...
If it's a display issue only, then it's probably a video
driver issue or an
issue with the display font. If it doesn't print that way,
then I would consider it not worth worrying about.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the
newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:LsYmf.22673$QW2.18131@dukeread08...

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" wrote in message
...
I'm not seeing that here, but possibly an AutoCorrect entry
has been set
up
to substitute an ff ligature for two f's. This character is
not present
in

It is working this way in a new blank document. I am
referring to the on-screen image, not the printed image. This
difference can only be seen when a screen capture is made and
the pixels are examined.
most fonts (though some do contain the fi and fl ligatures),
but it is
available in "expert" fonts and possibly in OpenType fonts
(though not
necessarily accessible directly in Word's Symbol dialog. You
might try
asking this question in the
microsoft.public.word.printingfonts NG. Note that two of the

NGs
you're posting to (.word and
.word.general) have been deprecated on the Microsoft server
and so will not be propagated to
some other news servers.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to
the newsgroup so all may benefit.

"Peter Olcott" wrote in message
news:XBXmf.22334$QW2.2560@dukeread08...
Why is it when I type fff in Bold Italic 24 Point Times New
Roman that the first
two letters are closer together than the last two letters?

Thanks




  #25  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 09:13 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.pagelayout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default When I type fff the first two letters are closer than the last two

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:29:54 -0600, Peter Olcott wrote:

Why is it when I type fff in Bold Italic 24 Point Times New Roman that the first
two letters are closer together than the last two letters?

Thanks


See if the description below helps...

Bob S

In older systems, Microsoft used a program called GDI to lay out text
for drawing on the screen. In newer systems Microsoft uses a program
called GDIPlus.

The new program uses something called "resolution-independent" layout.
See article 307208 called "Why text appears different when drawn with
GDIPlus versus GDI". "resolution-independent" is a misleading name;
the layout is in fact very dependent on resolution. What Microsoft has
actually done is make the length of the text independent of the
resolution. This ensures that line breaks in dialog boxes (for
example) occur at the same place no matter what the resolution of the
target device. The cost is poor rendering of text in certain
circumstances.

The article has a long explanation; here is a short version. Fonts
contain descriptions of the outlines of text glyphs. They also contain
"hints" to tell the rendering engine what to do on low resolution
displays (i.e. screens). One of the things that these hints tell the
rendering engine is how to slide the glyph outline around so that it
lines up with the pixel positions. This is called "grid fitting". This
avoids the horrible problems that result if the outline ends up
halfway between pixel positions. (Should it turn on both pixels,
making the character too wide, or neither, making it disappear, or…)
Both the character outline, and the "bounding box" that says how wide
the character is, will be lined up with the pixel grid.

The process of lining up the (carefully designed) bounding box with
the (relatively coarse) pixel grid can make the bounding box slightly
too wide or too narrow. For example, the "w" tends to come out too
narrow and "l" tends to come out too wide. This tends to average out
in ordinary text, but if you have a string of the same letter the
slight errors will add up, resulting in a large error in the length of
the string. Since one of the goals of GDIPlus is to not have errors in
the length of the string, something must be done.

What GDIPlus does is to add or remove space one pixel width at a time
to force the line length to come out correctly. If GDIPlus wants to
make a line longer, it will add up to one em of white space at the end
of the line, then increase space between words, then increase space
between characters. If GDIPlus wants to shorten a line, it reduces
space between words and then between characters.

(Note: If you have anti-aliasing turned on, these effects do not
happen; instead the text is made to look fuzzy.)

If you want to experiment with the effects, one thing to try is typing
a long string of "i" or "l" in 8-point Bold in Arial. Notice that some
of the characters are jammed together. You can also try typing a long
string of "w" in 8-point Bold in Courier New. Also look at a long
string of "ci" in 8-point Verdana.

Text was more legible under the old GDI system.



  #26  
Old January 2nd, 2006, 10:09 PM posted to microsoft.public.word,microsoft.public.word.general,microsoft.public.word.pagelayout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default When I type fff the first two letters are closer than the last two

Op Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:49:59 -0500, "JoAnn Paules [MVP]"
schreef:

I gotta ask - what word are you using that has three f's in a row?

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

Perhaps he is printing music scores. fff means fortissimo (a very loud
passage).

But why on earth so secretive?

Kind regards,

Rob.


  #27  
Old January 2nd, 2006, 10:13 PM posted to microsoft.public.word,microsoft.public.word.general,microsoft.public.word.pagelayout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default When I type fff the first two letters are closer than the last two

I wondered the same thing but I have more curiosity than an 8 week old
kitten.

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]



"Rob v. Albada" wrote in message
...
Op Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:49:59 -0500, "JoAnn Paules [MVP]"
schreef:

I gotta ask - what word are you using that has three f's in a row?

--

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

Perhaps he is printing music scores. fff means fortissimo (a very loud
passage).

But why on earth so secretive?

Kind regards,

Rob.




  #28  
Old January 4th, 2006, 01:41 AM posted to microsoft.public.word,microsoft.public.word.general,microsoft.public.word.pagelayout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default When I type fff the first two letters are closer than the lasttwo

Suzanne S. Barnhill wrote:
I'm not seeing that here, but possibly an AutoCorrect entry has been set up
to substitute an ff ligature for two f's. This character is not present in
most fonts (though some do contain the fi and fl ligatures), but it is
available in "expert" fonts and possibly in OpenType fonts (though not
necessarily accessible directly in Word's Symbol dialog. You might try
asking this question in the microsoft.public.word.printingfonts NG.

Note that two of the NGs you're posting to (.word and .word.general) have
been deprecated on the Microsoft server and so will not be propagated to
some other news servers.


While we're onto this topic, how do you set Word to automatically print
the ligatured forms when they're available? In some fonts the
non-ligatured combinations crash really badly.
 




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