Q: Access DE via network

Hi,

We're using access 2000 here on a network for a data entry
screen, and we'll soon be adding users on another network.
Right now, the users for the mdb are on the same network,
so it's a nice fat 100T connection. The new users are on a
T-1, so accessing the database is much slower.

I know I can split the database into a data/forms database
and give each of the forms to the users that they can put
locally. Is there anything else I can do to speed things
up? Basically, all I want transfered between servers is
data, no overhead for refreshing forms, etc.

Thanks!
-Mark

"MarkD" wrote in message
...
Hi,

We're using access 2000 here on a network for a data entry
screen, and we'll soon be adding users on another network.
Right now, the users for the mdb are on the same network,
so it's a nice fat 100T connection. The new users are on a
T-1, so accessing the database is much slower.

I think you can do the above math!

100T to 1T is 100 times.

So, something that takes 8 seconds, will now take 800 (that is 13 minutes
now!).

If a report takes 30 seconds, then now it will take 3000 second (that is 50
minutes now).

The math is very easy to do!


I know I can split the database into a data/forms database
and give each of the forms to the users that they can put
locally.

You need to do the above with any multi user access application (you REALLY
must avoid having multiple users in the front end). Further, you should be
distributing a mde to each user. This is a issue of stability.

Is there anything else I can do to speed things
up? Basically, all I want transfered between servers is
data, no overhead for refreshing forms, etc.

Really , we are dealing with a very simply grade school math problem:

1T is 100 times slower then 100T

You can read up on the solutions to using a wan he

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn/Wan/Wans.html

--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn



Thanks!
-Mark

Hi Albert,

Yes, I understand the difference between 100baseT and T-1.
I learned a bit early on in getting my math degree the
differnce between 1 and 100.

I was just stressing that since we will have end users on
different servers that what once worked now will not.

I also know that splitting the database will remove some
of the overhead you have when dealing with only one
database. What I really wanted to know is whether
splitting the database removes all overhead outside of
actual data transfer and, if not, if there was any other
ways to lessen the bandwidth.

-Mark


-----Original Message-----
"MarkD" wrote in
message
...
Hi,

We're using access 2000 here on a network for a data
entry
screen, and we'll soon be adding users on another
network.
Right now, the users for the mdb are on the same
network,
so it's a nice fat 100T connection. The new users are
on a
T-1, so accessing the database is much slower.

I think you can do the above math!

100T to 1T is 100 times.

So, something that takes 8 seconds, will now take 800
(that is 13 minutes
now!).

If a report takes 30 seconds, then now it will take 3000
second (that is 50
minutes now).

The math is very easy to do!


I know I can split the database into a data/forms
database
and give each of the forms to the users that they can
put
locally.

You need to do the above with any multi user access
application (you REALLY
must avoid having multiple users in the front end).
Further, you should be
distributing a mde to each user. This is a issue of
stability.

Is there anything else I can do to speed things
up? Basically, all I want transfered between servers is
data, no overhead for refreshing forms, etc.

Really , we are dealing with a very simply grade school
math problem:

1T is 100 times slower then 100T

You can read up on the solutions to using a wan he

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn/Wan/Wans.html

--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn



Thanks!
-Mark



.

splitting the database removes all overhead outside of
actual data transfer and

No it does not remove locking signalling and index
transfers. But it is probably the data transfers
which will now make your app unusable.

(david)


"MarkD" wrote in message
...
Hi Albert,

Yes, I understand the difference between 100baseT and T-1.
I learned a bit early on in getting my math degree the
differnce between 1 and 100.

I was just stressing that since we will have end users on
different servers that what once worked now will not.

I also know that splitting the database will remove some
of the overhead you have when dealing with only one
database. What I really wanted to know is whether
splitting the database removes all overhead outside of
actual data transfer and, if not, if there was any other
ways to lessen the bandwidth.

-Mark


-----Original Message-----
"MarkD" wrote in
message
...
Hi,

We're using access 2000 here on a network for a data
entry
screen, and we'll soon be adding users on another
network.
Right now, the users for the mdb are on the same
network,
so it's a nice fat 100T connection. The new users are
on a
T-1, so accessing the database is much slower.

I think you can do the above math!

100T to 1T is 100 times.

So, something that takes 8 seconds, will now take 800
(that is 13 minutes
now!).

If a report takes 30 seconds, then now it will take 3000
second (that is 50
minutes now).

The math is very easy to do!


I know I can split the database into a data/forms
database
and give each of the forms to the users that they can
put
locally.

You need to do the above with any multi user access
application (you REALLY
must avoid having multiple users in the front end).
Further, you should be
distributing a mde to each user. This is a issue of
stability.

Is there anything else I can do to speed things
up? Basically, all I want transfered between servers is
data, no overhead for refreshing forms, etc.

Really , we are dealing with a very simply grade school
math problem:

1T is 100 times slower then 100T

You can read up on the solutions to using a wan he

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn/Wan/Wans.html

--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn



Thanks!
-Mark



.

"MarkD" wrote in message
...


I was just stressing that since we will have end users on
different servers that what once worked now will not.

I also know that splitting the database will remove some
of the overhead you have when dealing with only one
database. What I really wanted to know is whether
splitting the database removes all overhead outside of
actual data transfer and, if not, if there was any other
ways to lessen the bandwidth.

Splitting does quite well reduce the overhead. However, my comments actually
where written and stated in terms of a split database (I as a general rule
just assume this is the case). So, the issue(s) of split change none of what
I had to say.

So, splitting helps, but does really very little to fix the problem of such
a large drop in bandwidth.

The main problem (or enemy) here is that the windows file system comes into
play and also must travel across the network. If you ever tried to simply
browse directories across a VPN on a dial up line..you will see what I mean!
(it is VERY slow...). In fact, try browsing directories across the T1 line
to the server (it will be VERY sluggish..and you not even transferring
data!..but just browsing directories).

So, to get any useable speed here, you will have to consider thin
client....or a ms-access application optimized for sql server.

I wish there was some other solution, but down in the t1 range...it just
requires a different technology then what a file share offers.


--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn

Thanks Albert,

We use SQL Navigator here against an Oracle database and
it seems that fetching rows is alot faster than having a
non-split database. Having a split database seems to speed
things up significantly to a degree that my manager is
happy with, but I was wondering if there was any other
ways I could squeeze a couple more % increase in speed.

And yeah, I know how it is browing directories across a T-
1. I gotta do that everyday and it's soooooo slooooooooow.
Oh well, I can't change the network infrastructure.

Thanks again for all your help,
-Mark


-----Original Message-----
"MarkD" wrote in
message
...


I was just stressing that since we will have end users
on
different servers that what once worked now will not.

I also know that splitting the database will remove some
of the overhead you have when dealing with only one
database. What I really wanted to know is whether
splitting the database removes all overhead outside of
actual data transfer and, if not, if there was any other
ways to lessen the bandwidth.

Splitting does quite well reduce the overhead. However,
my comments actually
where written and stated in terms of a split database (I
as a general rule
just assume this is the case). So, the issue(s) of split
change none of what
I had to say.

So, splitting helps, but does really very little to fix
the problem of such
a large drop in bandwidth.

The main problem (or enemy) here is that the windows file
system comes into
play and also must travel across the network. If you ever
tried to simply
browse directories across a VPN on a dial up line..you
will see what I mean!
(it is VERY slow...). In fact, try browsing directories
across the T1 line
to the server (it will be VERY sluggish..and you not even
transferring
data!..but just browsing directories).

So, to get any useable speed here, you will have to
consider thin
client....or a ms-access application optimized for sql
server.

I wish there was some other solution, but down in the t1
range...it just
requires a different technology then what a file share
offers.


--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn


.

"MarkD" wrote in message
...
Thanks Albert,

We use SQL Navigator here against an Oracle database and
it seems that fetching rows is alot faster than having a
non-split database. Having a split database seems to speed
things up significantly to a degree that my manager is
happy with, but I was wondering if there was any other
ways I could squeeze a couple more % increase in speed.

Why not move the access back end tables to oracle? You can keep the
ms-access front end..and most stuff will work, and place the data on the
oracle database. This approach most certainly can work on a t1 line.....


--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn

That's a perfectly logical and reasonable thing to do, but
my company doesn't like logical and reasonable.

The oracle tables are for reporting and not transaction
processing; I don't have update/append privileges. In any
case, whether the back end is Oracle or Access shouldn't
affect performance much, should it? If anything, I'd think
an Access front end to an Access back end would be faster
(our recordsets are 10,000 max, so Oracle isn't going to
speed things up much).

Thanks,
-Mark


-----Original Message-----
"MarkD" wrote in
message
...
Thanks Albert,

We use SQL Navigator here against an Oracle database and
it seems that fetching rows is alot faster than having a
non-split database. Having a split database seems to
speed
things up significantly to a degree that my manager is
happy with, but I was wondering if there was any other
ways I could squeeze a couple more % increase in speed.

Why not move the access back end tables to oracle? You
can keep the
ms-access front end..and most stuff will work, and place
the data on the
oracle database. This approach most certainly can work on
a t1 line.....


--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn


.

"MarkD" wrote in message
...

The oracle tables are for reporting and not transaction
processing; I don't have update/append privileges. In any
case, whether the back end is Oracle or Access shouldn't
affect performance much, should it?

Yes, in fact, this will effect performance VERY much. In my article, one of
the possible solutions here is to move the back end data from a simple file
to a true database server. (that server can be the free desktop sql server
engine included on the office cd for use with ms-access, or that server can
be sql-server, or in your case you have Oracle as a database server).

Using a server based system can dramatically effect performance. (it is a
different architecture)

Right now you have:


Ms-access-JET engine
------------ t1 line ----------- mdb file on server

To retrieve a record, jet has to:
Process sql command (no t1 traffic)
open table (this occurs across the t1 line...and is slow)
read/load index (this occurs across the t1 line...and is slow)

Of course, very little information from the index file is read from the mdb
file on the server, but it is slow

The index information is then used to "resolve" the location of the record
on the disk drive in the mdb file

The record is then read from the mdb file. Note that ANY kind of read on the
mdb file has to go through the t1 line.

Virtually 100% of the processing of ALL DATA occurs ON THE CLIENT pc.
ZERO % of the data processing occurs on the server side (in fact, you never
did need to install ms-access or the JET engine on the server side...did
you?).

Now, contrast the above to a true client to server setup:

Ms-access - JET engine
--------- t1 line------------ oracle database
server

To retrieve a record, jet has to:
Load and Process sql command (no t1 traffic)
send sql to Oracle (this request occurs across the t1 line)

at this point, ms-access is waiting.
Oracle at this point (or any data base server) can now load and read
the index file (no t1 activity occurs)
Oracle at this point can scan and read as much as the file data it
needs to grab that one record (no t1 activity occurs)
Oracle finishes loading the record, closes the table ...AND THEN
transmits the ONE record to ms-access/JET

You can see that the searching, indexing, and processing of data occurs on
the server side. In both cases, one record was sent down the wire, but as
you note, browsing, and using the file system across a t1 line is very slow.
With a true database server, the program that reads the hard disk and works
with the data occurs on the server side (this is simply a high speed machine
and all disk reads occur on the server /oracle side).
Thus, with a true database server, then ALL searching and processing usually
can occur on the server side.

Further, when you start involving sql joins, and relational data, then the
server has much more freedom to read data, create temp tables. grab huge
amounts of memory and disk space and have at the problem until the final
records are processed, loaded and setup ready to be transmitted to the
awaiting client (in our case ms-access).

Further, if you accidentally make a query on a field that is NOT indexed, in
a file share, the whole table much be sent down the wire to the client
computer IF THE index cannot be used (or there is no one present, or it
would be faster to NOT use a index). With a true database server, even when
a index can't be used, the disk drive and memory of the server might get a
real serous workout as it screams away at the disk drive to get the data,
but NO t1 activity occurs during this dance. That server can read, and
gobble data in anyway shape or form because it don't care or need a network
to read the data on ITS OWN disk drive. Finally, once the record is found,
then that is ALL that is trans mitted down the wire.

I mean, when you order a book on Amazon.com, a lot of disk drive activity
etc occurs..but it don't occur on YOUR pc. With a file share virtually 100%
of the processing MUST occur on your local pc, and often that will result in
additional traffic as the database engine reads information from the file.

If anything, I'd think
an Access front end to an Access back end would be faster
(our record are 10,000 max, so Oracle isn't going to

If you eliminate the network altogether, then your assuming is true. And, in
fact when no network is involved, the JET engine (the one that access uses)
is likely to be FASTER then oracle. However, as soon as you have a network
involved, then the true database server wins, as it is free to read and
munch and crunch the data to get the desired result...and THEN transmits
this result to the waiting client. The munching and crunching part does not
involve network (t1) activity...and it is this reduction in overhead as to
why a web based system (which is a server also), or server based database
system can function at such low bandwidth. I mean, a t1 line is PLENTY for a
web browser, and after all, most data you see on the web is driven by server
based database system (but all activry is hiddn from your client...in this
case the web browser).

So, in fact, the performance of using oracle will be MUCH better then a JET
to a simple file shared on the server.


--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn

Try to persuade your boss to make an Oracle User (schema) for your app or a
terrminal server for your WAN users...

Pieter


"Albert D. Kallal" wrote in message
...
"MarkD" wrote in message
...

The oracle tables are for reporting and not transaction
processing; I don't have update/append privileges. In any
case, whether the back end is Oracle or Access shouldn't
affect performance much, should it?

Yes, in fact, this will effect performance VERY much. In my article, one
of
the possible solutions here is to move the back end data from a simple
file
to a true database server. (that server can be the free desktop sql server
engine included on the office cd for use with ms-access, or that server
can
be sql-server, or in your case you have Oracle as a database server).

Using a server based system can dramatically effect performance. (it is a
different architecture)

Right now you have:


Ms-access-JET engine
------------ t1 line ----------- mdb file on server

To retrieve a record, jet has to:
Process sql command (no t1 traffic)
open table (this occurs across the t1 line...and is slow)
read/load index (this occurs across the t1 line...and is slow)

Of course, very little information from the index file is read from the
mdb
file on the server, but it is slow

The index information is then used to "resolve" the location of the record
on the disk drive in the mdb file

The record is then read from the mdb file. Note that ANY kind of read on
the
mdb file has to go through the t1 line.

Virtually 100% of the processing of ALL DATA occurs ON THE CLIENT pc.
ZERO % of the data processing occurs on the server side (in fact, you
never
did need to install ms-access or the JET engine on the server side...did
you?).

Now, contrast the above to a true client to server setup:

Ms-access - JET engine
--------- t1 line------------ oracle database
server

To retrieve a record, jet has to:
Load and Process sql command (no t1 traffic)
send sql to Oracle (this request occurs across the t1 line)

at this point, ms-access is waiting.
Oracle at this point (or any data base server) can now load and
read
the index file (no t1 activity occurs)
Oracle at this point can scan and read as much as the file data it
needs to grab that one record (no t1 activity occurs)
Oracle finishes loading the record, closes the table ...AND THEN
transmits the ONE record to ms-access/JET

You can see that the searching, indexing, and processing of data occurs on
the server side. In both cases, one record was sent down the wire, but as
you note, browsing, and using the file system across a t1 line is very
slow.
With a true database server, the program that reads the hard disk and
works
with the data occurs on the server side (this is simply a high speed
machine
and all disk reads occur on the server /oracle side).
Thus, with a true database server, then ALL searching and processing
usually
can occur on the server side.

Further, when you start involving sql joins, and relational data, then the
server has much more freedom to read data, create temp tables. grab huge
amounts of memory and disk space and have at the problem until the final
records are processed, loaded and setup ready to be transmitted to the
awaiting client (in our case ms-access).

Further, if you accidentally make a query on a field that is NOT indexed,
in
a file share, the whole table much be sent down the wire to the client
computer IF THE index cannot be used (or there is no one present, or it
would be faster to NOT use a index). With a true database server, even
when
a index can't be used, the disk drive and memory of the server might get a
real serous workout as it screams away at the disk drive to get the data,
but NO t1 activity occurs during this dance. That server can read, and
gobble data in anyway shape or form because it don't care or need a
network
to read the data on ITS OWN disk drive. Finally, once the record is found,
then that is ALL that is trans mitted down the wire.

I mean, when you order a book on Amazon.com, a lot of disk drive activity
etc occurs..but it don't occur on YOUR pc. With a file share virtually
100%
of the processing MUST occur on your local pc, and often that will result
in
additional traffic as the database engine reads information from the file.

If anything, I'd think
an Access front end to an Access back end would be faster
(our record are 10,000 max, so Oracle isn't going to

If you eliminate the network altogether, then your assuming is true. And,
in
fact when no network is involved, the JET engine (the one that access
uses)
is likely to be FASTER then oracle. However, as soon as you have a
network
involved, then the true database server wins, as it is free to read and
munch and crunch the data to get the desired result...and THEN transmits
this result to the waiting client. The munching and crunching part does
not
involve network (t1) activity...and it is this reduction in overhead as to
why a web based system (which is a server also), or server based database
system can function at such low bandwidth. I mean, a t1 line is PLENTY for
a
web browser, and after all, most data you see on the web is driven by
server
based database system (but all activry is hiddn from your client...in this
case the web browser).

So, in fact, the performance of using oracle will be MUCH better then a
JET
to a simple file shared on the server.


--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn