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  #31  
Old December 24th, 2006, 07:24 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Graham Mayor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,297
Default Programs that Delete Word Settings (Was Reading Layout View)

Any software that removes essential system files or registry information is
a hazard and not a help. If it removes Microsoft's software registry data on
Microsoft's operating system then it is worse than useless.

--

Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org


wrote:
Shauna Kelly wrote:

And then write a very angry letter to the makers of the software!


I had a similar problem, described below, and posted an angry letter
to the CCleaner forum. In the end I am not sure I was justified. The
developer's advocate shifted the blame to Microsoft, perhaps not
unreasonably. What do you think?

My Posting:
CCleaner deletes MS Word data key in registry, Bug that resets Word
2003 setting to default


Such a problem has been reported with regard to registry cleaners in
Microsoft forums . The odd thing here is that using only the temp
cleaner and trash emptier alone--even when the temp cleaner says it
deleted 0 bytes--resets Word 2003 setting to default. The pattern of
affected setting make it clear it is deleting either the data key or
the Settings value from the data key.


If this serious bug has not been previously reported, it is probably
because many users either don't reset Word settings from default or
don't recognize the difference after resetting.


Latest version of CCleaner


Advocate's first response:

This has been known for well over 1 1/2 years now, and a forum
search would have revealed such information. If you wish to use
Word 2003
with your settings intact you'll have to untick the cleaning of
Office 2003 in CCleaner



Taking your advice (to shift blame too g, I get angry:

Amazing. I am expected to do a forum search to discover that a
product widely promoted on the net has a bug that hasn't been
resolved for over 1 1/2 years. Misleading promotion, if you ask me.
Eventually consumers will wise up to the fact that a free product
is no excuse for incompetent programming. No product is free;
surely the developer obtains benefits from promoting his product,
and owes a duty of informed consent to users.



Expecting a response in kind, I read this quite reasonable answer:

The problem isn't the developer, or the product CCleaner. Any other
cleaning app that also offers to clean Office 2003 will probably
result into the same problem because Microsoft placed some of the
MRU lists within the actual settings such is the case in Word
2003. Hence the reason to only clean the list inside of Word 2003,
and not use any other program to do it. To my knowledge that's the
only way to clean Word 2003 without losing all settings. The same
can also extend to other Office 2003 apps.


To safely clean things like Publisher 2003, etc., without enabling
the full cleaning of Office 2003 (which I myself will never enable
again since I use Office 2003) check out the winapp2.ini add-on,
the Publisher 2003 and Script Editor 2003 cleaning routines I
submitted
and know they're safe and non-destructive to settings.


A tip before using any cleaning program on MS Office 2003 is to go
into: Start All Programs Microsoft Office Microsoft Office
Tools Microsoft Office 2003 Save My Settings Wizard


With Microsoft Office 2003 Save My Settings Wizard you can also
restore your settings, and it works like a charm between WinXP
re-installs too.


Here's just a few other threads on it:
http://forum.ccleaner.com/index. php?showtopic=4089
http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.php?showtopic=3935
http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.php?showtopic=3073 http://forum.
ccleaner.com/index.php?showtopic=2940
http://forum.ccleaner.com/index. php?showtopic=1222


[/End quote]

Stephen Diamond



  #32  
Old December 24th, 2006, 08:34 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Shauna Kelly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 572
Default Programs that Delete Word Settings (Was Reading Layout View)

Hi Stephen

To my mind a "cleaner" should remove garbage or dirt, which is to say
unwanted things. A program that advertises that it "cleans" should not
delete data used by a program or a user. We might disagree over what is
wanted data and what is garbage. My view is that users need the settings
stored in the Word data key, and no cleaner should remove them without
warning.

CCleaner has had quite a lot of press in the Word newsgroups. (see
http://groups.google.com.au/groups?q....*& start=10). I
contacted CCleaner in April this year to warn them that their cleaner was
scrubbing a bit too hard, but I did not get an acknowledgement or response.

Hope this helps.

Shauna Kelly. Microsoft MVP.
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word


wrote in message
ups.com...
Shauna Kelly wrote:

And then write a very angry letter to the makers of the software!


I had a similar problem, described below, and posted an angry letter to
the CCleaner forum. In the end I am not sure I was justified. The
developer's advocate shifted the blame to Microsoft, perhaps not
unreasonably. What do you think?

My Posting:
CCleaner deletes MS Word data key in registry, Bug that resets Word
2003 setting to default


Such a problem has been reported with regard to registry cleaners in
Microsoft forums . The odd thing here is that using only the temp
cleaner and trash emptier alone--even when the temp cleaner says it
deleted 0 bytes--resets Word 2003 setting to default. The pattern of
affected setting make it clear it is deleting either the data key or
the Settings value from the data key.


If this serious bug has not been previously reported, it is probably
because many users either don't reset Word settings from default or
don't recognize the difference after resetting.


Latest version of CCleaner


Advocate's first response:

This has been known for well over 1 1/2 years now, and a forum search
would have revealed such information. If you wish to use Word 2003
with your settings intact you'll have to untick the cleaning of Office
2003 in CCleaner



Taking your advice (to shift blame too g, I get angry:

Amazing. I am expected to do a forum search to discover that a product
widely promoted on the net has a bug that hasn't been resolved for
over 1 1/2 years. Misleading promotion, if you ask me. Eventually
consumers will wise up to the fact that a free product is no excuse
for incompetent programming. No product is free; surely the developer
obtains benefits from promoting his product, and owes a duty of
informed consent to users.



Expecting a response in kind, I read this quite reasonable answer:

The problem isn't the developer, or the product CCleaner. Any other
cleaning app that also offers to clean Office 2003 will probably
result into the same problem because Microsoft placed some of the MRU
lists within the actual settings such is the case in Word 2003. Hence
the reason to only clean the list inside of Word 2003, and not use any
other program to do it. To my knowledge that's the only way to clean
Word 2003 without losing all settings. The same can also extend to
other Office 2003 apps.


To safely clean things like Publisher 2003, etc., without enabling the
full cleaning of Office 2003 (which I myself will never enable again
since I use Office 2003) check out the winapp2.ini add-on, the
Publisher 2003 and Script Editor 2003 cleaning routines I submitted
and know they're safe and non-destructive to settings.


A tip before using any cleaning program on MS Office 2003 is to go into:
Start All Programs Microsoft Office Microsoft Office Tools
Microsoft Office 2003 Save My Settings Wizard


With Microsoft Office 2003 Save My Settings Wizard you can also restore
your settings, and it works like a charm between WinXP re-installs too.


Here's just a few other threads on it: http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.
php?showtopic=4089 http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.php?showtopic=3935
http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.php?showtopic=3073 http://forum.
ccleaner.com/index.php?showtopic=2940 http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.
php?showtopic=1222


[/End quote]

Stephen Diamond



  #33  
Old December 24th, 2006, 03:09 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Andrea
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Programs that Delete Word Settings (Was Reading Layout View)

I want to clarify that the software I was using wasn't CCleaner but Disk
Cleaner--with the same result. I posted the problem as a bug (not an angry
letter) on December 13th, but no one responded. Then on 12/22 someone
reported a similar bug in which he was losing his user settings, and this
time there were a few responses, including the suggestion to fix the Office
plugin so that it only cleans out junk files and not registry settings.

-Andrea

wrote:
Shauna Kelly wrote:

And then write a very angry letter to the makers of the software!


I had a similar problem, described below, and posted an angry letter to
the CCleaner forum. In the end I am not sure I was justified. The
developer's advocate shifted the blame to Microsoft, perhaps not
unreasonably. What do you think?

My Posting:
CCleaner deletes MS Word data key in registry, Bug that resets Word
2003 setting to default


Such a problem has been reported with regard to registry cleaners in
Microsoft forums . The odd thing here is that using only the temp
cleaner and trash emptier alone--even when the temp cleaner says it
deleted 0 bytes--resets Word 2003 setting to default. The pattern of
affected setting make it clear it is deleting either the data key or
the Settings value from the data key.


If this serious bug has not been previously reported, it is probably
because many users either don't reset Word settings from default or
don't recognize the difference after resetting.


Latest version of CCleaner


Advocate's first response:

This has been known for well over 1 1/2 years now, and a forum search
would have revealed such information. If you wish to use Word 2003
with your settings intact you'll have to untick the cleaning of Office
2003 in CCleaner



Taking your advice (to shift blame too g, I get angry:

Amazing. I am expected to do a forum search to discover that a product
widely promoted on the net has a bug that hasn't been resolved for
over 1 1/2 years. Misleading promotion, if you ask me. Eventually
consumers will wise up to the fact that a free product is no excuse
for incompetent programming. No product is free; surely the developer
obtains benefits from promoting his product, and owes a duty of
informed consent to users.



Expecting a response in kind, I read this quite reasonable answer:

The problem isn't the developer, or the product CCleaner. Any other
cleaning app that also offers to clean Office 2003 will probably
result into the same problem because Microsoft placed some of the MRU
lists within the actual settings such is the case in Word 2003. Hence
the reason to only clean the list inside of Word 2003, and not use any
other program to do it. To my knowledge that's the only way to clean
Word 2003 without losing all settings. The same can also extend to
other Office 2003 apps.


To safely clean things like Publisher 2003, etc., without enabling the
full cleaning of Office 2003 (which I myself will never enable again
since I use Office 2003) check out the winapp2.ini add-on, the
Publisher 2003 and Script Editor 2003 cleaning routines I submitted
and know they're safe and non-destructive to settings.


A tip before using any cleaning program on MS Office 2003 is to go
into: Start All Programs Microsoft Office Microsoft Office Tools
Microsoft Office 2003 Save My Settings Wizard


With Microsoft Office 2003 Save My Settings Wizard you can also restore
your settings, and it works like a charm between WinXP re-installs too.


Here's just a few other threads on it:
http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.
php?showtopic=4089 http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.php?showtopic=3935
http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.php?showtopic=3073 http://forum.
ccleaner.com/index.php?showtopic=2940 http://forum.ccleaner.com/index.
php?showtopic=1222


[/End quote]

Stephen Diamond



  #34  
Old December 24th, 2006, 09:11 PM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Programs that Delete Word Settings (Was Reading Layout View)

If some people want or need such thorough cleaning that their settings
have to be sacrificed in the process, I'm glad CCleaner provides this
capability for them. But it isn't a behavior the user has any reason to
expect. There must be a mechanism to bring the behavior to the user's
attention before the effect is felt. One obvious way would be to turn
Office cleaning OFF by default and pop-up a warning when the user
checks Office. At this point, the CCleaner developer's irresponsible
marketing of the product has destroyed the confidence in a product I
need to allow it access to my registry, and I have deleted CCleaner.

  #35  
Old December 25th, 2006, 07:32 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Graham Mayor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,297
Default Programs that Delete Word Settings (Was Reading Layout View)

In the hands of people who don't know what they are doing, registry cleaners
do more harm than good. It's all very well having a smaller registry, which
might save a few seconds when you open Windows, but if the required entries
are scrubbed along the way, then the applications may not work properly and
in a worst case Windows will not start.

Some of these applications also remove 'redundant' dlls! Disaster in the
hands of the unwary

--

Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org



wrote:
If some people want or need such thorough cleaning that their settings
have to be sacrificed in the process, I'm glad CCleaner provides this
capability for them. But it isn't a behavior the user has any reason
to expect. There must be a mechanism to bring the behavior to the
user's attention before the effect is felt. One obvious way would be
to turn Office cleaning OFF by default and pop-up a warning when the
user checks Office. At this point, the CCleaner developer's
irresponsible marketing of the product has destroyed the confidence
in a product I need to allow it access to my registry, and I have
deleted CCleaner.



  #36  
Old December 26th, 2006, 01:03 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Programs that Delete Word Settings (Was Reading Layout View)

I understand that even a massively inflated registry has no significant
effect on anything except the length of time required to search the
registry. Yet despite this knowledge, it is hard to eschew registry
cleaning. I don't know why exactly. There's something like a pre-wire
intution that if your remove 1,000 useless registry entries, it has to
imply there was a problem.

I myself don't run any serious risks, because I never proceed without a
full disk image. Worst case scenario, I lose 20 minutes while I restore
the disk. Sometimes problems arise with applications long afterwards,
but here the worse case is a reinstallation of the application.

Still, why waste the time. Registry cleaning may qualify as an
addiction.

Stephen R. Diamond

Graham Mayor wrote:
In the hands of people who don't know what they are doing, registry cleaners
do more harm than good. It's all very well having a smaller registry, which
might save a few seconds when you open Windows, but if the required entries
are scrubbed along the way, then the applications may not work properly and
in a worst case Windows will not start.

Some of these applications also remove 'redundant' dlls! Disaster in the
hands of the unwary

--

Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org



wrote:
If some people want or need such thorough cleaning that their settings
have to be sacrificed in the process, I'm glad CCleaner provides this
capability for them. But it isn't a behavior the user has any reason
to expect. There must be a mechanism to bring the behavior to the
user's attention before the effect is felt. One obvious way would be
to turn Office cleaning OFF by default and pop-up a warning when the
user checks Office. At this point, the CCleaner developer's
irresponsible marketing of the product has destroyed the confidence
in a product I need to allow it access to my registry, and I have
deleted CCleaner.


  #37  
Old December 26th, 2006, 01:03 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Programs that Delete Word Settings (Was Reading Layout View)

I understand that even a massively inflated registry has no significant
effect on anything except the length of time required to search the
registry. Yet despite this knowledge, it is hard to eschew registry
cleaning. I don't know why exactly. There's something like a pre-wire
intution that if your remove 1,000 useless registry entries, it has to
imply there was a problem.

I myself don't run any serious risks, because I never proceed without a
full disk image. Worst case scenario, I lose 20 minutes while I restore
the disk. Sometimes problems arise with applications long afterwards,
but here the worse case is a reinstallation of the application.

Still, why waste the time. Registry cleaning may qualify as an
addiction.

Stephen R. Diamond

Graham Mayor wrote:
In the hands of people who don't know what they are doing, registry cleaners
do more harm than good. It's all very well having a smaller registry, which
might save a few seconds when you open Windows, but if the required entries
are scrubbed along the way, then the applications may not work properly and
in a worst case Windows will not start.

Some of these applications also remove 'redundant' dlls! Disaster in the
hands of the unwary

--

Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org



wrote:
If some people want or need such thorough cleaning that their settings
have to be sacrificed in the process, I'm glad CCleaner provides this
capability for them. But it isn't a behavior the user has any reason
to expect. There must be a mechanism to bring the behavior to the
user's attention before the effect is felt. One obvious way would be
to turn Office cleaning OFF by default and pop-up a warning when the
user checks Office. At this point, the CCleaner developer's
irresponsible marketing of the product has destroyed the confidence
in a product I need to allow it access to my registry, and I have
deleted CCleaner.


  #38  
Old December 26th, 2006, 01:03 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Programs that Delete Word Settings (Was Reading Layout View)

I understand that even a massively inflated registry has no significant
effect on anything except the length of time required to search the
registry. Yet despite this knowledge, it is hard to eschew registry
cleaning. I don't know why exactly. There's something like a pre-wire
intution that if your remove 1,000 useless registry entries, it has to
imply there was a problem.

I myself don't run any serious risks, because I never proceed without a
full disk image. Worst case scenario, I lose 20 minutes while I restore
the disk. Sometimes problems arise with applications long afterwards,
but here the worse case is a reinstallation of the application.

Still, why waste the time. Registry cleaning may qualify as an
addiction.

Stephen R. Diamond

Graham Mayor wrote:
In the hands of people who don't know what they are doing, registry cleaners
do more harm than good. It's all very well having a smaller registry, which
might save a few seconds when you open Windows, but if the required entries
are scrubbed along the way, then the applications may not work properly and
in a worst case Windows will not start.

Some of these applications also remove 'redundant' dlls! Disaster in the
hands of the unwary

--

Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org



wrote:
If some people want or need such thorough cleaning that their settings
have to be sacrificed in the process, I'm glad CCleaner provides this
capability for them. But it isn't a behavior the user has any reason
to expect. There must be a mechanism to bring the behavior to the
user's attention before the effect is felt. One obvious way would be
to turn Office cleaning OFF by default and pop-up a warning when the
user checks Office. At this point, the CCleaner developer's
irresponsible marketing of the product has destroyed the confidence
in a product I need to allow it access to my registry, and I have
deleted CCleaner.


  #39  
Old December 26th, 2006, 08:37 AM posted to microsoft.public.word.docmanagement
Graham Mayor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,297
Default Programs that Delete Word Settings (Was Reading Layout View)

However it might stop your PC coughing out posts in triplicate?

--

Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org


wrote:
I understand that even a massively inflated registry has no
significant effect on anything except the length of time required to
search the registry. Yet despite this knowledge, it is hard to eschew
registry cleaning. I don't know why exactly. There's something like a
pre-wire intution that if your remove 1,000 useless registry entries,
it has to imply there was a problem.

I myself don't run any serious risks, because I never proceed without
a full disk image. Worst case scenario, I lose 20 minutes while I
restore the disk. Sometimes problems arise with applications long
afterwards, but here the worse case is a reinstallation of the
application.

Still, why waste the time. Registry cleaning may qualify as an
addiction.

Stephen R. Diamond

Graham Mayor wrote:
In the hands of people who don't know what they are doing, registry
cleaners do more harm than good. It's all very well having a smaller
registry, which might save a few seconds when you open Windows, but
if the required entries are scrubbed along the way, then the
applications may not work properly and in a worst case Windows will
not start.

Some of these applications also remove 'redundant' dlls! Disaster in
the hands of the unwary

--

Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site
www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org



wrote:
If some people want or need such thorough cleaning that their
settings have to be sacrificed in the process, I'm glad CCleaner
provides this capability for them. But it isn't a behavior the user
has any reason to expect. There must be a mechanism to bring the
behavior to the user's attention before the effect is felt. One
obvious way would be to turn Office cleaning OFF by default and
pop-up a warning when the user checks Office. At this point, the
CCleaner developer's irresponsible marketing of the product has
destroyed the confidence in a product I need to allow it access to
my registry, and I have deleted CCleaner.



 




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