Quirk in W2003 grammar

Copy/paste these sentences into Word 2003 with spelling check enabled
(US english)

These are software that are very easy to use these days

There are downloads that is awesome

There is download that are awesome


The "are" in the first sentence is getting flagged for grammar when it
looks right to me.
The other two sentences seem to be wrong grammar yet W2003 does not
flag them.

I have always noticed that the words "software" and "download" have
trouble with Word 2003 grammar when used with different combinations
with the words "is" or "are" (singular or plural trouble)

-------------------------------------------------------
www.tinyurl.com/cheapwriting

I agree that the second and third are clearly wrong. I wouldn't use the
first, either, since I would avoid using "software" (clearly singular) with
a plural meaning.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"L. Mohan Arun" wrote in message
...
Copy/paste these sentences into Word 2003 with spelling check enabled
(US english)

These are software that are very easy to use these days

There are downloads that is awesome

There is download that are awesome


The "are" in the first sentence is getting flagged for grammar when it
looks right to me.
The other two sentences seem to be wrong grammar yet W2003 does not
flag them.

I have always noticed that the words "software" and "download" have
trouble with Word 2003 grammar when used with different combinations
with the words "is" or "are" (singular or plural trouble)

-------------------------------------------------------
www.tinyurl.com/cheapwriting

"Software" is not singular. It can be a plural term. May be this
discussion needs to be cross-posted to alt.usage.english but the
problem is with Word 2003 grammar.

In context:
You need to use special software to create your personal website.
These are software that are very easy to use these days.

This is correct but Word found fault with "are" so I changed it to
"These are pieces of software that are very easy to use these days."
and Word accepted the "are". This goes to show that software is not a
"singular" term.

To prove that Word 2003 does not consider software as a "singular" try
both these sentences:
Not all html editor software are created equal
Not all html editor software is created equal

Both do not get flagged for any error.

Here is another reference which clearly needs a plural reference for
"software"
"Other web site maker software are often bloated"

Here too, Word finds fault with the "are".

----------------------------------------
www.tinyurl.com/cheapwriting

On Feb 6, 12:53*am, "L. Mohan Arun" wrote:
"Software" is not singular. It can be a plural term. May be this
discussion needs to be cross-posted to alt.usage.english but the
problem is with Word 2003 grammar.

You are simply mistaken. The word "software" is singular, always. It
is what in English grammar is called a "mass noun," and even if it
refers to many different entities, it is always construed as singular.

In context:
You need to use special software to create your personal website.
These are software that are very easy to use these days.

This is incorrect. You can say "There is software that is very easy to
use," or you can say "There are programs that are very easy to use."
You cannot intermingle the two sentences.

This is correct but Word found fault with "are" so I changed it to
"These are pieces of software that are very easy to use these days."
and Word accepted the "are". This goes to show that software is not a
"singular" term.

No, it shows that "pieces" is a plural "count noun," which is
construed as plural.

To prove that Word 2003 does not consider software as a "singular" try
both these sentences:
Not all html editor software are created equal
Not all html editor software is created equal

Both do not get flagged for any error.

The first is incorrect. The second is correct.

Here is another reference which clearly needs a plural reference for
"software"
"Other web site maker software are often bloated"

That doesn't make any sense at all -- I can't even tell what you are
trying to say.

Here too, Word finds fault with the "are".

That is the least of the problems.

----------------------------------------www.tinyurl.com/cheapwriting

A further lesson of your experiences is that there is no fully
successful grammar-checking program. Language is just too complicated
for computers.

To prove that Word 2003 does not consider software as a "singular" try
both these sentences:
Not all html editor software are created equal
Not all html editor software is created equal
Both do not get flagged for any error.

The first is incorrect. The second is correct.

So how do you explain that Word does not flag the first sentence as
incorrect grammar? This is more about Word's grammar recognition than
about English usage..

Here is another reference which clearly needs a plural reference for
"software"
"Other web site maker software are often bloated"

That doesn't make any sense at all -- I can't even tell what you are trying to say.

It makes sense as is. A reference to all the other web site maker
software out there - clearly that is plural - a "collective noun" -
Word finds fault with the 'are" and wants to change it to "Other web
site maker software is often bloated". I want to say that all the
other software are bloated except this one.

Here too, Word finds fault with the "are".
That is the least of the problems.

It is a problem nonetheless... I dont agree that it is "least of the
problems".

The bottom line is that if you want to treat "software" as plural, then you
need to use another word, such as "programs" or "applications" or
"solutions."

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

"L. Mohan Arun" wrote in message
...
To prove that Word 2003 does not consider software as a "singular" try
both these sentences:
Not all html editor software are created equal
Not all html editor software is created equal
Both do not get flagged for any error.

The first is incorrect. The second is correct.

So how do you explain that Word does not flag the first sentence as
incorrect grammar? This is more about Word's grammar recognition than
about English usage..

Here is another reference which clearly needs a plural reference for
"software"
"Other web site maker software are often bloated"

That doesn't make any sense at all -- I can't even tell what you are
trying to say.

It makes sense as is. A reference to all the other web site maker
software out there - clearly that is plural - a "collective noun" -
Word finds fault with the 'are" and wants to change it to "Other web
site maker software is often bloated". I want to say that all the
other software are bloated except this one.

Here too, Word finds fault with the "are".
That is the least of the problems.

It is a problem nonetheless... I dont agree that it is "least of the
problems".

On Feb 7, 2:26*am, "L. Mohan Arun" wrote:
To prove that Word 2003 does not consider software as a "singular" try
both these sentences:
Not all html editor software are created equal
Not all html editor software is created equal
Both do not get flagged for any error.
The first is incorrect. The second is correct.

So how do you explain that Word does not flag the first sentence as
incorrect grammar? This is more about Word's grammar recognition than
about English usage..

So now you have learned that computer grammar checkers are not
infallible! Machine Translation doesn't work particularly well,
either, because human language is far more complicated than anything
any computer yet programmed is able to handle.

Here is another reference which clearly needs a plural reference for
"software"
"Other web site maker software are often bloated"
That doesn't make any sense at all -- I can't even tell what you are trying to say.

It makes sense as is. A reference to all the other web site maker
software out there - clearly that is plural - a "collective noun" -

I'm sorry, but "web site maker software" isn't English. You might
intend "web sites of makers of software," or "software for making web
sites," and it isn't clear whether you are saying that the web sites
are bloated or the software is bloated.

Word finds fault with the 'are" and wants to change it to "Other web
site maker software is often bloated". I want to say that all the
other software are bloated except this one.

A string of four nouns with nothing between them is very unusual in
English, and the grammar-checking program probably simply saw that the
noun next before the verb is singular, and changed the verb to
singular.

Here too, Word finds fault with the "are".
That is the least of the problems.

It is a problem nonetheless... I dont agree that it is "least of the
problems".

It is not a problem, because the word "software" is singular, even if
it refers to more than one piece of software / more than one program.

I'm sorry, but "web site maker software" isn't English. You might
intend "web sites of makers of software," or "software for making web
sites," and it isn't clear whether you are saying that the web sites
are bloated or the software is bloated.


Disagree with you here - My work requires me to use this exact phrase
"web site maker software" It is just like "office productivity
software" . I dont intend to say web sites of makers of software - it
looks you are going on a different trail.

Going by your own version, "Other software for making web sites are
bloated." Gives an error in the "are" . It is not correct to say
"Other software for making web sites is bloated" because this sense is
plural not singular.

I dont want to use terms other than "software" because I need to use
the exact keyword phrase that includes the term "software".

Ultimately what I wanted to say is not about how infallible machine
translation is - I simply wanted to point out the quirks in W2003
grammar so the powers that be can fix it in the next release. I know
grammar sensing is not that perfect.

It is not a problem, because the word "software" is singular, even if
it refers to more than one piece of software / more than one program.

Disagree - IT IS a problem with W2003 grammar. And I still say
software is a term that needs to be plural not singular. Or both.

To prove this type this in w 2003
"There are other softwares for doing this."
"Softwares" term is flagged as error - right click - you will find
"software" as an option. Select that and it now complains about the
"are".

Bottom line: Both the words "download" and "software" needs fixing in
Grammar in W2003

On Feb 9, 8:28*am, "L. Mohan Arun" wrote:

I'm sorry, but "web site maker software" isn't English. You might
intend "web sites of makers of software," or "software for making web
sites," and it isn't clear whether you are saying that the web sites
are bloated or the software is bloated.

Disagree with you here - My work requires me to use this exact phrase
"web site maker software" It is just like "office productivity
software" . I dont intend to say web sites of makers of software - it
looks you are going on a different trail.

If your work requires that, I hope you don't intend your work to be
read by people in English-speaking countries.

Going by your own version, "Other software for making web sites are
bloated." Gives an error in the "are" . It is not correct to say
"Other software for making web sites is bloated" because this sense is
plural not singular.

How many times do you have to be told: verb concord in English follows
the grammatical number of the subject, not the notional or semantic
number. "Other software are bloated" is UNGRAMMATICAL in every variety
of English.

I dont want to use terms other than "software" because I need to use
the exact keyword phrase that includes the term "software".

Then you must use a singular verb.

Ultimately what I wanted to say is not about how infallible machine
translation is - I simply wanted to point out the quirks in W2003
grammar so the powers that be can fix it in the next release. I know
grammar sensing is not that perfect.

They will not, however, change the feature that correctly marks
"software are" as a mistake.

It is not a problem, because the word "software" is singular, even if
it refers to more than one piece of software / more than one program.

Disagree - IT IS a problem with W2003 grammar. And I still say
software is a term that needs to be plural not singular. Or both.

It is not a matter for "disagreement." It is a matter of the way the
English language is spoken. You do not get to decide to change
English.

To prove this type this in w 2003
"There are other softwares for doing this."
"Softwares" term is flagged as error - right click - you will find
"software" as an option. Select that and it now complains about the
"are".

Have you bothered to look in your English grammar book for the concept
"mass noun"? How is it possible that you studied English as a Second
Language and were never taught about mass nouns vs. count nouns?

Regarding those two errors, the computer is absolutely correct.

Bottom line: Both the words "download" and "software" needs fixing in
Grammar in W2003

Grammar checkers don't operate on words. They operate on grammar.

You had not previously brought up the word "download," and I most
definitely do not want to know what your problem with it is.

Disagree - IT IS a problem with W2003 grammar. And I still say
software is a term that needs to be plural not singular. Or both.

It is not a matter for "disagreement." It is a matter of the way the
English language is spoken. You do not get to decide to change
English.

I am not saying to change English - I am not interested in that. The
purpose of this discussion is that I think "software" can be both
singular or plural in meaning. The purpose of this posting is not
about usage of English, but about Word 2003 grammar. You can take a
look at the thread subject before you post any more of your answers or
please dont answer at all.

Specifically I am saying that both these sentences with the word
"software" are NOT getting flagged as errors in W2003 grammar

This Software pieces is great
These pieces of Software is great

It is blindly taking "software" as singular even though I have
qualified it with "pieces". So it IS something to do with W2003
grammar with the word "software"

To prove this type this in w 2003
"There are other softwares for doing this."
"Softwares" term is flagged as error - right click - you will find
"software" as an option. Select that and it now complains about the
"are".


Have you bothered to look in your English grammar book for the concept
"mass noun"? How is it possible that you studied English as a Second
Language and were never taught about mass nouns vs. count nouns?

Regarding those two errors, the computer is absolutely correct.

I have to say that you seem to be getting irritable with this thread
because you are indulging on a direct personal attack rather than
being an objective contributor. If this thread irritates you, then why
you are posting at all? Let others reply if at all they do.

Bottom line: Both the words "download" and "software" needs fixing in
Grammar in W2003

Grammar checkers don't operate on words. They operate on grammar.

Yeah so? What I meant is that the grammar implementation in W2003 that
involves these words are not perfect in my opinion.

You had not previously brought up the word "download," and I most
definitely do not want to know what your problem with it is.

Who said I wanted *you* to know what my problem is - This is a public
thread where others can read and understand about W2003 grammar
issues. I am not asking *you* in particular about any problem with the
word "download" in W2003 grammar.

If you really wanted to say that "software" is a mass or uncountable
noun you could have given an authoritative link like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun
I am not interested in *YOUR* opinion about English grammar or whether
Word 2003 grammar is correct or not, as you yourself may have English
as second language.