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#11
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Access 2003, autonumbers
Further to tina's excellent comments:
Designing a database looks simple on the face of it. But it's full of nasty traps for the beginner. These traps will not be apparent to you, at the start. But they will become greatly apparrent down the track, when you try to write your queries, forms & reports. Suddenly you'll find it difficult or impossible to get the data back, in the ways that you want. Your forms will show duplicate records (ie., several records where you only want one), and/or missing ones. You'll spend countless hours trying to rewrite your SQL statements, when in fact, the problem is that the table structure is not correct. It's like building a house on a foundation of sand. It looks fine initially, byut then you notice it's starting to lean to the left; oops! Then it falls over. Then you have to rip it all up, start again, and do it all properly. Better to have done it properly in the first place! Trust us on this - you need to drop what you're doing, & do some reading about "database normalization", before you continue. HTH, TC |
#12
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Access 2003, autonumbers
Tina & TC,
Much thanks, it looks like I'll have to put a pause with my developing process. I'll go look up the stated articles. Take care, Dave Hubbard "TC" wrote: Further to tina's excellent comments: Designing a database looks simple on the face of it. But it's full of nasty traps for the beginner. These traps will not be apparent to you, at the start. But they will become greatly apparrent down the track, when you try to write your queries, forms & reports. Suddenly you'll find it difficult or impossible to get the data back, in the ways that you want. Your forms will show duplicate records (ie., several records where you only want one), and/or missing ones. You'll spend countless hours trying to rewrite your SQL statements, when in fact, the problem is that the table structure is not correct. It's like building a house on a foundation of sand. It looks fine initially, byut then you notice it's starting to lean to the left; oops! Then it falls over. Then you have to rip it all up, start again, and do it all properly. Better to have done it properly in the first place! Trust us on this - you need to drop what you're doing, & do some reading about "database normalization", before you continue. HTH, TC |
#13
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Access 2003, autonumbers
"Dave Hubbard" ( donotspam ) wrote in message ... Thanks to all, maybe I should explain further. I have one table with all the country names, and their ID #'s. I have others tables for each country coins. You can do this if you wish, but everything that MS Access might make easy for you will be thrown away. This way I can have a seperate table listing the characteristics for the coins from the seperate countries. Extended characteristics of a coin, by country, can be further normalized in separate tables. I would have to know a lot more about these characteristics, and might have to go with Super Type and Sub Type table arrangements, but in the end, it is a problem with known solutions. So tbl COUNTRY ( 10 ), Just as a side note, when you type out "tbl COUNTRY ( 10 )", I am thrown for a complete loop. It appears to be part table name part Data Definition Language (DDL). Is this really the name of a table? With spaces and () (both of which should not be used in table names)? will just a tabale having the characteristics of coins from the country having the ID # ( 10 ). Maybe this clearifies my ideas. Oh, I believe I understood the first time. Please, don't do it. There are other solutions. Unless I can have one table with country names, and one table with just coins. I want to be able to have ID #'s starting at 1 for each countries coins. You mentioned something about this previously. Can you please explain what difference it will make having ID #'s starting at 1 for each country's coins? I know only the faintest bits and pieces of numismatics. Is there some requirement defined by this fascinating branch of collecting that requires that the coins of each country be assigned a number starting with 1? Otherwise, from a programming and db design standpoint, I can't really think of one. Especially not when every coin will reside in the Coins table I mentioned. Googling on Database Normalization will provide many good articles. Most of them are written for other database professionals (the actual written rules of Database Normalization will throw you for a loop if you don't know exactly what they are talking about). Knowledge about Database Normalization also goes hand in hand with some knowledge of Data Modeling. Data Modeling is a process of describing the "entities" related to whatever process or business (or game, personal hobby, etc.) is under discussion. Usually this involves lots of lines and boxes and notations on a chart. There are several methods available to "data model" something, and several of these methods exist to make the eventual job of designing a relational database easier. Database Normalization is a proces of decomposition, of breaking down information until you get down the basic elements that describe entities, and making sure that the information kept about an entity (i.e. "table") *really* belongs to it, and not to something else (or somewhere else). Good Basics: About.com http://databases.about.com/od/specif...malization.htm Intermediate: MySQL's website: http://dev.mysql.com/tech-resources/...alization.html Advanced: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization Very Advanced: University of Texas: I quite like this whole site, since it has a handy menu on the right describing many important aspects of the database world: http://www.utexas.edu/its/windows/da...ng/rm/rm7.html --------------------------- In addition to the tables I already mentioned: Continents ContinentID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK ContinenentName TEXT(16) Countries CountryID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK ContinenentID INTEGER -- FK to Continents CountryName TEXT(128) Mints MintID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK CountryID INTEGER -- FK to Countries MintName TEXT(128) Coins CoinID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK MintID INTEGER -- FK to Mints Denomination TEXT(48) Grading TEXT(36) HeadsPicture ? TailsPicture ? Inscription TEXT(48) Motto TEXT(48) Stamping StampID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK CoinID INTEGER -- FK to Coins StampDate DATETIME You can add: CoinAttributeTypes CoinAttributeTypeID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK AttributeName TEXT(48) CoinAttributes CoinAttributeID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK CoinID INTEGER -- FK to Coins CoinAttributeTypeID INTEGER -- FK to CoinAttributeTypes AttributeValue TEXT(48) These two tables allow you to add an unlimited list of additional custom attributes for any particular coin. The fixed an unchanging attributes go in Coins, and the variable custom attributs go in CoinAttributes. Some work could expand it to provide for templated lists of custom attributes by country. Sincerely, Chris O. |
#14
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Access 2003, autonumbers
"Chris2" wrote: "Dave Hubbard" ( donotspam ) wrote in message ... Thanks to all, maybe I should explain further. I have one table with all the country names, and their ID #'s. I have others tables for each country coins. You can do this if you wish, but everything that MS Access might make easy for you will be thrown away. This way I can have a seperate table listing the characteristics for the coins from the seperate countries. Extended characteristics of a coin, by country, can be further normalized in separate tables. I would have to know a lot more about these characteristics, and might have to go with Super Type and Sub Type table arrangements, but in the end, it is a problem with known solutions. So tbl COUNTRY ( 10 ), Just as a side note, when you type out "tbl COUNTRY ( 10 )", I am thrown for a complete loop. It appears to be part table name part Data Definition Language (DDL). Is this really the name of a table? With spaces and () (both of which should not be used in table names)? COUNTRY ( 10 ) is the 10th country from an alphabetic list of all the countries. I thought giving each country an ID # would make it easier for sorting. will just a tabale having the characteristics of coins from the country having the ID # ( 10 ). Maybe this clearifies my ideas. Oh, I believe I understood the first time. Please, don't do it. There are other solutions. Unless I can have one table with country names, and one table with just coins. I want to be able to have ID #'s starting at 1 for each countries coins. You mentioned something about this previously. Can you please explain what difference it will make having ID #'s starting at 1 for each country's coins? I know only the faintest bits and pieces of numismatics. Is there some requirement defined by this fascinating branch of collecting that requires that the coins of each country be assigned a number starting with 1? Otherwise, from a programming and db design standpoint, I can't really think of one. Especially not when every coin will reside in the Coins table I mentioned. By starting each counties coins by one, if a coin has an ID(89) then that country has 89 coins from there. I won't have to figure out the quantity from each country, the above coin also tells me that that country DOESN'T have less then 89 coins. Googling on Database Normalization will provide many good articles. Most of them are written for other database professionals (the actual written rules of Database Normalization will throw you for a loop if you don't know exactly what they are talking about). Some of the articles listed by googling on Database Normalization were a little confusing, and above me. Knowledge about Database Normalization also goes hand in hand with some knowledge of Data Modeling. Data Modeling is a process of describing the "entities" related to whatever process or business (or game, personal hobby, etc.) is under discussion. Usually this involves lots of lines and boxes and notations on a chart. There are several methods available to "data model" something, and several of these methods exist to make the eventual job of designing a relational database easier. Database Normalization is a proces of decomposition, of breaking down information until you get down the basic elements that describe entities, and making sure that the information kept about an entity (i.e. "table") *really* belongs to it, and not to something else (or somewhere else). Good Basics: About.com http://databases.about.com/od/specif...malization.htm Intermediate: MySQL's website: http://dev.mysql.com/tech-resources/...alization.html Advanced: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization Very Advanced: University of Texas: I quite like this whole site, since it has a handy menu on the right describing many important aspects of the database world: http://www.utexas.edu/its/windows/da...ng/rm/rm7.html Thank you for the above links, they seem to be more my level. --------------------------- In addition to the tables I already mentioned: Continents ContinentID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK ContinenentName TEXT(16) Countries CountryID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK ContinenentID INTEGER -- FK to Continents CountryName TEXT(128) Mints MintID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK CountryID INTEGER -- FK to Countries MintName TEXT(128) Coins CoinID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK MintID INTEGER -- FK to Mints Denomination TEXT(48) Grading TEXT(36) HeadsPicture ? TailsPicture ? Inscription TEXT(48) Motto TEXT(48) Stamping StampID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK CoinID INTEGER -- FK to Coins StampDate DATETIME You can add: CoinAttributeTypes CoinAttributeTypeID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK AttributeName TEXT(48) CoinAttributes CoinAttributeID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK CoinID INTEGER -- FK to Coins CoinAttributeTypeID INTEGER -- FK to CoinAttributeTypes AttributeValue TEXT(48) These two tables allow you to add an unlimited list of additional custom attributes for any particular coin. The fixed an unchanging attributes go in Coins, and the variable custom attributs go in CoinAttributes. Some work could expand it to provide for templated lists of custom attributes by country. Sincerely, Chris O. To give you a little of my specs, I'm a survivor of a car accident from early '89. I was told that I would never be able to lead a normal life, but have decided to do the best I can on any given day. These newsgroups give me a good link to needed information. Best Regards, Dave Hubbard |
#15
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Access 2003, autonumbers
rest assured, Dave, you were completely normal in your initial approach to
building a database, as compared to the average newbie. most newbie folks make the same types of mistakes in designing tables/relationships, unless they've already had training in relational design principles - so you fall right in with the rest of the crowd. and while you may have certain challenges in daily living, it's obvious that there's nothing wrong with your thought processes. you'll do fine with Access development once you get the basics of data normalization/relationships under your belt. good luck with your project, and come on back when you have questions - we're always here. "Dave Hubbard" ( donotspam ) wrote in message ... "Chris2" wrote: "Dave Hubbard" ( donotspam ) wrote in message ... Thanks to all, maybe I should explain further. I have one table with all the country names, and their ID #'s. I have others tables for each country coins. You can do this if you wish, but everything that MS Access might make easy for you will be thrown away. This way I can have a seperate table listing the characteristics for the coins from the seperate countries. Extended characteristics of a coin, by country, can be further normalized in separate tables. I would have to know a lot more about these characteristics, and might have to go with Super Type and Sub Type table arrangements, but in the end, it is a problem with known solutions. So tbl COUNTRY ( 10 ), Just as a side note, when you type out "tbl COUNTRY ( 10 )", I am thrown for a complete loop. It appears to be part table name part Data Definition Language (DDL). Is this really the name of a table? With spaces and () (both of which should not be used in table names)? COUNTRY ( 10 ) is the 10th country from an alphabetic list of all the countries. I thought giving each country an ID # would make it easier for sorting. will just a tabale having the characteristics of coins from the country having the ID # ( 10 ). Maybe this clearifies my ideas. Oh, I believe I understood the first time. Please, don't do it. There are other solutions. Unless I can have one table with country names, and one table with just coins. I want to be able to have ID #'s starting at 1 for each countries coins. You mentioned something about this previously. Can you please explain what difference it will make having ID #'s starting at 1 for each country's coins? I know only the faintest bits and pieces of numismatics. Is there some requirement defined by this fascinating branch of collecting that requires that the coins of each country be assigned a number starting with 1? Otherwise, from a programming and db design standpoint, I can't really think of one. Especially not when every coin will reside in the Coins table I mentioned. By starting each counties coins by one, if a coin has an ID(89) then that country has 89 coins from there. I won't have to figure out the quantity from each country, the above coin also tells me that that country DOESN'T have less then 89 coins. Googling on Database Normalization will provide many good articles. Most of them are written for other database professionals (the actual written rules of Database Normalization will throw you for a loop if you don't know exactly what they are talking about). Some of the articles listed by googling on Database Normalization were a little confusing, and above me. Knowledge about Database Normalization also goes hand in hand with some knowledge of Data Modeling. Data Modeling is a process of describing the "entities" related to whatever process or business (or game, personal hobby, etc.) is under discussion. Usually this involves lots of lines and boxes and notations on a chart. There are several methods available to "data model" something, and several of these methods exist to make the eventual job of designing a relational database easier. Database Normalization is a proces of decomposition, of breaking down information until you get down the basic elements that describe entities, and making sure that the information kept about an entity (i.e. "table") *really* belongs to it, and not to something else (or somewhere else). Good Basics: About.com http://databases.about.com/od/specif...malization.htm Intermediate: MySQL's website: http://dev.mysql.com/tech-resources/...alization.html Advanced: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization Very Advanced: University of Texas: I quite like this whole site, since it has a handy menu on the right describing many important aspects of the database world: http://www.utexas.edu/its/windows/da...ng/rm/rm7.html Thank you for the above links, they seem to be more my level. --------------------------- In addition to the tables I already mentioned: Continents ContinentID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK ContinenentName TEXT(16) Countries CountryID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK ContinenentID INTEGER -- FK to Continents CountryName TEXT(128) Mints MintID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK CountryID INTEGER -- FK to Countries MintName TEXT(128) Coins CoinID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK MintID INTEGER -- FK to Mints Denomination TEXT(48) Grading TEXT(36) HeadsPicture ? TailsPicture ? Inscription TEXT(48) Motto TEXT(48) Stamping StampID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK CoinID INTEGER -- FK to Coins StampDate DATETIME You can add: CoinAttributeTypes CoinAttributeTypeID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK AttributeName TEXT(48) CoinAttributes CoinAttributeID AUTOINCREMENT -- PK CoinID INTEGER -- FK to Coins CoinAttributeTypeID INTEGER -- FK to CoinAttributeTypes AttributeValue TEXT(48) These two tables allow you to add an unlimited list of additional custom attributes for any particular coin. The fixed an unchanging attributes go in Coins, and the variable custom attributs go in CoinAttributes. Some work could expand it to provide for templated lists of custom attributes by country. Sincerely, Chris O. To give you a little of my specs, I'm a survivor of a car accident from early '89. I was told that I would never be able to lead a normal life, but have decided to do the best I can on any given day. These newsgroups give me a good link to needed information. Best Regards, Dave Hubbard |
#16
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Access 2003, autonumbers
"Dave Hubbard" ( donotspam ) wrote in message ... "Chris2" wrote: You mentioned something about this previously. Can you please explain what difference it will make having ID #'s starting at 1 for each country's coins? I know only the faintest bits and pieces of numismatics. Is there some requirement defined by this fascinating branch of collecting that requires that the coins of each country be assigned a number starting with 1? Otherwise, from a programming and db design standpoint, I can't really think of one. Especially not when every coin will reside in the Coins table I mentioned. By starting each counties coins by one, if a coin has an ID(89) then that country has 89 coins from there. I won't have to figure out the quantity from each country, the above coin also tells me that that country DOESN'T have less then 89 coins. Dave Hubbard, Glad to be of help. The xxxxID column in each table uniquely identifies each row. That is its meaning and purpose. By trying to use it to denote the count of coins, you have added a second meaning to it. Relational database tables tend to work best if each column's values mean only one thing. (This is referred to as "collapsing values", and goes against 1st Normal Form; and "1st Normal Form" is described in the various links I provided.) If you delete a coin (what if a coin was mis-entered?), this can cause problems, especially if you are using Autonumber columns. Autonumber columns do not allow you to re-use numbers, and in any event can suddenly jump to higher numbers when certain things happen, leaving sometimes large gaps. It is possible to create a programmatic system of increasing the coin numbers, but my advice is to use the "xxxxID" columns only as internal identifiers that you never see on your forms or reports. Even if you are not using Autonumber columns, any programmatic solution you have that generates "the next highest" number will also have to include provisions for searching out and filling unused "lower" gaps. And what happens in the interval between the deletion of a coin and the insertion of a new coin to "fill up" the gap? Wrong data comes out of any query that is run, that is what happens. You can use (based on my example tables): (Untested, sorry.) SELECT CY1.CountryName ,COUNT(C1.CoinID) As CoinCount FROM (Coins AS C1 INNER JOIN Mints AS M1 ON C1.MintID = M1.MintID) INNER JOIN Countries AS CY1 ON M1.CountryID = CY1.CountryID GROUP BY CY1.CountryName Or something very similar, to determine the number of coins in each country. The number of coins in other groupings can be used to determined (by Mint, etc.). You can add a WHERE clause with a parameter in a query: WHERE CY1.CountryName = [Enter Country] Or to take a control reference from a form: WHERE CY1.CountryName = Forms!YourForm!YourControl In order to return results for single countries. The above query does not care about the values, or gaps, in the xxxxID columns, it just tells you what the count is for the specified group. Sincerely, Chris O. |
#17
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Access 2003, autonumbers
"Chris2" wrote: "Dave Hubbard" ( donotspam ) wrote in message ... "Chris2" wrote: You mentioned something about this previously. Can you please explain what difference it will make having ID #'s starting at 1 for each country's coins? I know only the faintest bits and pieces of numismatics. Is there some requirement defined by this fascinating branch of collecting that requires that the coins of each country be assigned a number starting with 1? Otherwise, from a programming and db design standpoint, I can't really think of one. Especially not when every coin will reside in the Coins table I mentioned. By starting each counties coins by one, if a coin has an ID(89) then that country has 89 coins from there. I won't have to figure out the quantity from each country, the above coin also tells me that that country DOESN'T have less then 89 coins. Dave Hubbard, Glad to be of help. The xxxxID column in each table uniquely identifies each row. That is its meaning and purpose. By trying to use it to denote the count of coins, you have added a second meaning to it. Relational database tables tend to work best if each column's values mean only one thing. (This is referred to as "collapsing values", and goes against 1st Normal Form; and "1st Normal Form" is described in the various links I provided.) If you delete a coin (what if a coin was mis-entered?), this can cause problems, especially if you are using Autonumber columns. Autonumber columns do not allow you to re-use numbers, and in any event can suddenly jump to higher numbers when certain things happen, leaving sometimes large gaps. It is possible to create a programmatic system of increasing the coin numbers, but my advice is to use the "xxxxID" columns only as internal identifiers that you never see on your forms or reports. Even if you are not using Autonumber columns, any programmatic solution you have that generates "the next highest" number will also have to include provisions for searching out and filling unused "lower" gaps. And what happens in the interval between the deletion of a coin and the insertion of a new coin to "fill up" the gap? Wrong data comes out of any query that is run, that is what happens. You can use (based on my example tables): (Untested, sorry.) SELECT CY1.CountryName ,COUNT(C1.CoinID) As CoinCount FROM (Coins AS C1 INNER JOIN Mints AS M1 ON C1.MintID = M1.MintID) INNER JOIN Countries AS CY1 ON M1.CountryID = CY1.CountryID GROUP BY CY1.CountryName Or something very similar, to determine the number of coins in each country. The number of coins in other groupings can be used to determined (by Mint, etc.). You can add a WHERE clause with a parameter in a query: WHERE CY1.CountryName = [Enter Country] Or to take a control reference from a form: WHERE CY1.CountryName = Forms!YourForm!YourControl In order to return results for single countries. The above query does not care about the values, or gaps, in the xxxxID columns, it just tells you what the count is for the specified group. Sincerely, Chris O. So Chris or Tina if I'm trying to Normalize my database my tables should look like this? If my table in 1NF is: tblFIRST CountryName ContinentName CoinID# -- PK Denomination Grading ObverseDevice (picture heads side) ReverseDevice (picture tails side) Inscription Motto Then my tables in 3NF would be: tblCONTINENT ContinentName ContinentID# -- PK -------------------------- tblCOUNTRY CountryName CountryID# -- PK ContinentID# -- FK to tblCONTINENT -------------------------- tblCOINS CoinID# -- PK CountryID# -- FK to tblCOUNTRY Denomination Grading ObverseDevice (picture heads side) ReverseDevice (picture tails side) Inscription Motto -------------------------- This way I won't have to link by the country or continent names, but by either the CountryID# or the ContinentID#. I think this should help minimize the space needed to run my application. Understanding this ACCESS 2003 is really confusing, but I'm not afraid to try anything. Much appreciation with any assistance, Dave Hubbard |
#18
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Access 2003, autonumbers
your 3rd normal form table design looks fine to me. the only note i might
include: if you have a standard set of "grades" that you apply to all coins (i have no idea what this would be - excellent condition, good condition, poor condition? whatever), then you could also include a tblGRADES GradeID -- PK GradeName then instead of the Grading field in tblCOINS, use the GradeID field as a foreign key to tblGRADES. since you know what "grading" is (and i don't), you'll need to decide if the above suggestion is appropriate for your database or not. hth "Dave Hubbard" ( donotspam ) wrote in message ... So Chris or Tina if I'm trying to Normalize my database my tables should look like this? If my table in 1NF is: tblFIRST CountryName ContinentName CoinID# -- PK Denomination Grading ObverseDevice (picture heads side) ReverseDevice (picture tails side) Inscription Motto Then my tables in 3NF would be: tblCONTINENT ContinentName ContinentID# -- PK -------------------------- tblCOUNTRY CountryName CountryID# -- PK ContinentID# -- FK to tblCONTINENT -------------------------- tblCOINS CoinID# -- PK CountryID# -- FK to tblCOUNTRY Denomination Grading ObverseDevice (picture heads side) ReverseDevice (picture tails side) Inscription Motto -------------------------- This way I won't have to link by the country or continent names, but by either the CountryID# or the ContinentID#. I think this should help minimize the space needed to run my application. Understanding this ACCESS 2003 is really confusing, but I'm not afraid to try anything. Much appreciation with any assistance, Dave Hubbard |
#19
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Access 2003, autonumbers
"Dave Hubbard" ( donotspam ) wrote in message ... snip Sincerely, Chris O. So Chris or Tina if I'm trying to Normalize my database my tables should look like this? snip Then my tables in 3NF would be: tblCONTINENT ContinentName ContinentID# -- PK -------------------------- tblCOUNTRY CountryName CountryID# -- PK ContinentID# -- FK to tblCONTINENT -------------------------- tblCOINS CoinID# -- PK CountryID# -- FK to tblCOUNTRY Denomination Grading ObverseDevice (picture heads side) ReverseDevice (picture tails side) Inscription Motto -------------------------- This way I won't have to link by the country or continent names, but by either the CountryID# or the ContinentID#. I think this should help minimize the space needed to run my application. Understanding this ACCESS 2003 is really confusing, but I'm not afraid to try anything. Much appreciation with any assistance, Dave Hubbard Dave Hubbard, The above looks great. Remember to review it to make sure that it does represent all the pieces of information you would like to collect (there is no way I can know as much as you about this field of collecting). Sincerely, Chris O. |
#20
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Access 2003, autonumbers
"tina" wrote in message ... your 3rd normal form table design looks fine to me. the only note i might include: if you have a standard set of "grades" that you apply to all coins (i have no idea what this would be - excellent condition, good condition, poor condition? whatever), then you could also include a tblGRADES GradeID -- PK GradeName then instead of the Grading field in tblCOINS, use the GradeID field as a foreign key to tblGRADES. since you know what "grading" is (and i don't), you'll need to decide if the above suggestion is appropriate for your database or not. hth tina, Yes, that's a good catch. There are standard gradings in coin collecting, IIRC. Sincerely, Chris O. |
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