Multidimensional Forms/Tables

Steve,
I initially criticized you for advertising as the first reply in a thread.
You have done this several times recently. Your posting provided no other
benefit to anyone reading your reply other than an advertisement. I know why
I found the definition of "advertise" since you didn't seem to understand
its meaning. Defining other terms have no bearing on this discussion.

Where do you get "carte blanc criticizing everything I do". I have read many
of your "legitimate" posts recently and might have even learned something
from them.

I have never criticized your signature. Can you find one posting from me
where I criticized your signature? If you search carefully, you will find
one thread where I defended your use of a signature when you were criticized
by Arno or someone else.

Can you find one instance where I criticized you in a thread where fairly
deep in it appeared an OP wouldn't find success without going off-line? I
generally don't like any thread to go off-line whether for free or fee. When
I have done this, it hasn't been for money and I try to post the solution
back in the thread so others can benefit, not just the OP. I don't expect
others to go off-line for free. I do expect them to try provide free, public
support first.

I'm not sure how you can justify "you have turned one hundred and eighty
degrees" when I believe I have been fairly consistent.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--

Duane,

Did you ever look at Sharan's attachment?

Steve


"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
Steve,
I initially criticized you for advertising as the first reply in a thread.
You have done this several times recently. Your posting provided no other
benefit to anyone reading your reply other than an advertisement. I know
why I found the definition of "advertise" since you didn't seem to
understand its meaning. Defining other terms have no bearing on this
discussion.

Where do you get "carte blanc criticizing everything I do". I have read
many of your "legitimate" posts recently and might have even learned
something from them.

I have never criticized your signature. Can you find one posting from me
where I criticized your signature? If you search carefully, you will find
one thread where I defended your use of a signature when you were
criticized by Arno or someone else.

Can you find one instance where I criticized you in a thread where fairly
deep in it appeared an OP wouldn't find success without going off-line? I
generally don't like any thread to go off-line whether for free or fee.
When I have done this, it hasn't been for money and I try to post the
solution back in the thread so others can benefit, not just the OP. I
don't expect others to go off-line for free. I do expect them to try
provide free, public support first.

I'm not sure how you can justify "you have turned one hundred and eighty
degrees" when I believe I have been fairly consistent.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--

And do you think Doug Steele, David Mueller, John Marshall, Marshall Barton,
Ken Snell and WSF looked at it?

Steve


"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
Steve,
I initially criticized you for advertising as the first reply in a thread.
You have done this several times recently. Your posting provided no other
benefit to anyone reading your reply other than an advertisement. I know
why I found the definition of "advertise" since you didn't seem to
understand its meaning. Defining other terms have no bearing on this
discussion.

Where do you get "carte blanc criticizing everything I do". I have read
many of your "legitimate" posts recently and might have even learned
something from them.

I have never criticized your signature. Can you find one posting from me
where I criticized your signature? If you search carefully, you will find
one thread where I defended your use of a signature when you were
criticized by Arno or someone else.

Can you find one instance where I criticized you in a thread where fairly
deep in it appeared an OP wouldn't find success without going off-line? I
generally don't like any thread to go off-line whether for free or fee.
When I have done this, it hasn't been for money and I try to post the
solution back in the thread so others can benefit, not just the OP. I
don't expect others to go off-line for free. I do expect them to try
provide free, public support first.

I'm not sure how you can justify "you have turned one hundred and eighty
degrees" when I believe I have been fairly consistent.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--

It not safe to open attached files in public news groups. Did you read the
reply from WSF on 10/11?

Again, I don't know what this diversion has to do with your advertising your
services in a first reply in a thread. I would ask you to enlighten me on
this but you have trouble staying focused.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...
Duane,

Did you ever look at Sharan's attachment?

Steve

I hope not.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--

"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
hlink.net...
And do you think Doug Steele, David Mueller, John Marshall, Marshall
Barton, Ken Snell and WSF looked at it?

Steve


"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
Steve,
I initially criticized you for advertising as the first reply in a
thread. You have done this several times recently. Your posting provided
no other benefit to anyone reading your reply other than an
advertisement. I know why I found the definition of "advertise" since you
didn't seem to understand its meaning. Defining other terms have no
bearing on this discussion.

Where do you get "carte blanc criticizing everything I do". I have read
many of your "legitimate" posts recently and might have even learned
something from them.

I have never criticized your signature. Can you find one posting from me
where I criticized your signature? If you search carefully, you will find
one thread where I defended your use of a signature when you were
criticized by Arno or someone else.

Can you find one instance where I criticized you in a thread where fairly
deep in it appeared an OP wouldn't find success without going off-line? I
generally don't like any thread to go off-line whether for free or fee.
When I have done this, it hasn't been for money and I try to post the
solution back in the thread so others can benefit, not just the OP. I
don't expect others to go off-line for free. I do expect them to try
provide free, public support first.

I'm not sure how you can justify "you have turned one hundred and eighty
degrees" when I believe I have been fairly consistent.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--

Steve,

The issue here is that you blatantly try to drum up business via the
newsgroups, and that is clearly in breach of the guidelines (and thereby,
its ethics). The newsgroups are meant to offer *free* help. The MVPs try to
solve the OPs problem in the newsgroups, for free. If that fails, we may
offer to help them offline, but the inference and intention is always that
that offline help is also free, in the spirit of the newsgroups. Having said
that, we'll sometimes find that the (now offline) problem requires more time
and resources than can be reasonably expected for free, so we either (a)
escalate it to Microsoft, (b) provide references to other resources (free or
fee-based), or (c) advise the OP and offer our professional services.

Our principal objection with you is that you go straight to offering a
*fee-based service*, without first exhausting the many other *free*
resources still available, and without attempting to solve the issue offline
for free. Your statement that you have completed 1000 fee-based requests for
help in the past 4 years may be true (I don't know), but it is irrelevent,
because of itself, that fact is not evidence that what you're doing is
ethical. I suggest also that your use of the word "requests" is a tad
generous, because it's you who is making the request - not the OP.

You emphasised the words "offer" and "help" in your response to Duane. When
you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a "service" -
not offering "help". That's it in a nutshell, and that's what we object to.

We applaud the many free and helpful posts that you make in these
newsgroups, and certainly don't have any issue with listing your business as
part of your signature line. No-one objects to you earning a living; we all
have to do that, but when you start charging the instant the (previously
free) problem needs to go offline - that amounts to using the newsgroups to
generate business leads. I for one have never seen you offer to take an OP's
problem offline for free (you may have - I've just never seen it).

The ethics of this matter are simple; Since you start helping for free -
finish helping for free - except of course when the problem ultimately
proves too much to reasonably expect for free, and after all other free
resources have been exhausted. Don't just go for straight for the fee-based
service.

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...
Duane,

Your first sentence speaks volumes about your letting your emotion rule
your
thinking! That's exactly what I mean about you losing touch with
newsgroups'
core purpose. The two words are OFFER and HELP. These two words go to the
heart of what the newsgroups are about and you are rejecting the concept.
OFFER is defined (from your own dictionary) as "To present in order to
meet
a need or satisfy a requirement" and HELP is defined as "Relief; remedy
(sic
solution to Access related problem)". When you say you don't care what
these
words mean you are syaing you don't care whether the Access users who come
to the newsgroups to find solutions to their problems get a solution or
not.
I present the Access users an alternative to getting a solution to their
Access related problem that they can accept or reject. It takes up a mere
line and a half. 1000 Access users have chosen this alternative and have
gotten a solution to their Access related problem.

Your emotion has taken over to such a degree that you have lost all
consistency in what you are saying. Here's a quote of what you said at the
beginning of this thread, "I would not have criticized you if this thread
was about 10 replies long and it was clear that the OP needed to find a
contractor." And in your current response you have turned one hundred and
eighty degrees and are carte blanc criticizing everything I do.
Additionally, in another place you said, "I personally would not mind if a
thread went on for "many days" and maybe
20+ posts and the OP just couldn't "get it" then to offer your "for
charge"
services as long as you made it clear there would be a fee." Is it 10
replies or 20+ posts before you "allow" me to offer fee-based help? You're
certainly not being clear. Further,
your current response is inconsistent with another MVP's opinion. Doug
Steele said, "I will grant you that the words in Rules of Conduct for this
group, as posted at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ga...RulesofConduct
can be interpretted, should you choose to, as letting you advertise: "We
ask
that you refrain from posting advertisements or solicitations that do not
pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup or
chat."
Your statement number 2 is contrary to what Doug says. Finally, you are
literally correct in your statement number 1 but totally in error in its
meaning. The newsgroups are full of advertising! There's all the
following:
o MS Access MVP
o "See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs."
o "John Viescas, author
"Building Microsoft Access Applications" (Coming Soon!)
"Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out"
"Running Microsoft Access 2000"
"SQL Queries for Mere Mortals"
o David Lloyd
MCSD .NET
http://LemingtonConsulting.com
and the list goes on and on to where religious retreats are advertised by
a
MVP who
frequently responds to the newsgroups. You see all of this advertising in
the newsgroups on a daily basis.

So you see that your arguments don't hold water and what you are saying
does
not make sense.

Steve


"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
I don't care what other words mean. Why do you dodge the meaning of
advertise? That was the object of our discussion pertaining to #1.

How could I have lost touch with newsgroups' core purpose? My emotion
took
over once when you took a comment from Ken Snell way out of context. I
called you an idiot or something for which I apologized. Your "actions"
deserved to be called stupid and/or idiotic but not necessarily your
person as a whole.

Just because your advertising works doesn't mean it isn't advertising.

I believe there is no hope for you. You continually offer tangential
statements that aren't relative to the current point (that you use public
newsgroups to advertise). You are too proud or poor or stubborn to admit
that:
1) what you are doing is advertising in public newsgroups
2) netiquette suggests that advertising in public newsgroups is not
acceptable

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Offer
Particularly note 2b!!
1.. To present for acceptance or rejection; proffer: offered me a
drink.
2.. a) To put forward for consideration; propose: offer an opinion.
b) To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a
requirement

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Help

1.
a) The act or an instance of helping.
b) Aid or assistance.
2. Relief; remedy.

You have completely lost touch with what the newsgroups' core purpose
really is.!!

In the time you have spent dogging me you could have used your
Access/database knowledge to help a multitude of Access users with
problems who came to the newsgroups seeking help solving their problems.
This is one of the reasons 1000 Access users came to me in the past four
years willing to pay me for help with their problems. You don't get it!!
You have left your emotion take over just like in your previous response
where you called me an idiot. In the past you condemned Arno R for his
tactics and now you have become just the same. Respect for you is
quickly
fading!

Steve



"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
1. Your intelligence level is peeking out
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advertise
2.-6. Your attempt to redefine netiquette.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--
Microsoft Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote:

1. "Contact me at my email address below if you would like outside
help
with this. My fees are very reasonable" IS NOT advertising!

2. 11 requests for fee based help since I posted #1 to Sharan in this
thread on 10/7

3. 1000 completed requests for fee based help in the last four years

4. I judiciously only make an offer of fee-based help where it
appears
highly unlikely that a poster will get a solution to his post or where
it
appears highly unlikely that the poster will be able to get a solution
to
his post on his own.

5. Ten fold responses of free advice/support

6. 2 & 3 are clearly in the spirit of the newsgroups to provide a
resource
for Access users to find solutions to their problems

If it will ease your mind, I will put in the subject "Offer of
fee-based
help"

Steve

Graham,

I take issue with what you say.
1. a) In the first sentence, what specific published guidelines are you
referring to?
b) Where in the guidelines does it say "Thou shall not drum up
business"?

2. You say, "...we may offer to help them offline..."
a) I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this. You could
probably count on one hand how many times an offer like this was made in the
newsgroups in the past eight months. Case in point, you are about the
eighth MVP that has responded in this thread. Undoubtedly numerous other
MVPs have read this thread. Do you see one MVP offering to help Sharan
offline? This is the exact point I made to Duane in a previous response to
him when I said that he could have helped numerous posters solve their
problems in the time he has spent dogging me. You have demonstrated keen
expertise with Access in the posts you have made to the newsgroups. In the
time you spent writing this response to me, you could have written detailed
instructions to Sharan on how to at least begin to solve his problem. Sharan
still has his problem as far as anyone can tell.
b) A goodly number of posters post through discussions.microsoft.com and
accessmonster.com. There's no way to email these posters offline. So if
offers by MVPs to help offline rarely appear in the newsgroups and there's
no way to email posters who post through discussions.microsoft.com and
accessmonster.com, your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..."
has no validity.

Finally,
When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a
"service" - not offering "help".

(c) advise the OP and offer our professional services.

So, MVPs "offer" professional services and since I am not an MVP, I
"solicit" a service?

Steve


"Graham R Seach" wrote in message
...
Steve,

The issue here is that you blatantly try to drum up business via the
newsgroups, and that is clearly in breach of the guidelines (and thereby,
its ethics). The newsgroups are meant to offer *free* help. The MVPs try
to solve the OPs problem in the newsgroups, for free. If that fails, we
may offer to help them offline, but the inference and intention is always
that that offline help is also free, in the spirit of the newsgroups.
Having said that, we'll sometimes find that the (now offline) problem
requires more time and resources than can be reasonably expected for free,
so we either (a) escalate it to Microsoft, (b) provide references to other
resources (free or fee-based), or (c) advise the OP and offer our
professional services.

Our principal objection with you is that you go straight to offering a
*fee-based service*, without first exhausting the many other *free*
resources still available, and without attempting to solve the issue
offline for free. Your statement that you have completed 1000 fee-based
requests for help in the past 4 years may be true (I don't know), but it
is irrelevent, because of itself, that fact is not evidence that what
you're doing is ethical. I suggest also that your use of the word
"requests" is a tad generous, because it's you who is making the request -
not the OP.

You emphasised the words "offer" and "help" in your response to Duane.
When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a
"service" - not offering "help". That's it in a nutshell, and that's what
we object to.

We applaud the many free and helpful posts that you make in these
newsgroups, and certainly don't have any issue with listing your business
as part of your signature line. No-one objects to you earning a living; we
all have to do that, but when you start charging the instant the
(previously free) problem needs to go offline - that amounts to using the
newsgroups to generate business leads. I for one have never seen you offer
to take an OP's problem offline for free (you may have - I've just never
seen it).

The ethics of this matter are simple; Since you start helping for free -
finish helping for free - except of course when the problem ultimately
proves too much to reasonably expect for free, and after all other free
resources have been exhausted. Don't just go for straight for the
fee-based service.

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...
Duane,

Your first sentence speaks volumes about your letting your emotion rule
your
thinking! That's exactly what I mean about you losing touch with
newsgroups'
core purpose. The two words are OFFER and HELP. These two words go to the
heart of what the newsgroups are about and you are rejecting the concept.
OFFER is defined (from your own dictionary) as "To present in order to
meet
a need or satisfy a requirement" and HELP is defined as "Relief; remedy
(sic
solution to Access related problem)". When you say you don't care what
these
words mean you are syaing you don't care whether the Access users who
come
to the newsgroups to find solutions to their problems get a solution or
not.
I present the Access users an alternative to getting a solution to their
Access related problem that they can accept or reject. It takes up a mere
line and a half. 1000 Access users have chosen this alternative and have
gotten a solution to their Access related problem.

Your emotion has taken over to such a degree that you have lost all
consistency in what you are saying. Here's a quote of what you said at
the
beginning of this thread, "I would not have criticized you if this thread
was about 10 replies long and it was clear that the OP needed to find a
contractor." And in your current response you have turned one hundred and
eighty degrees and are carte blanc criticizing everything I do.
Additionally, in another place you said, "I personally would not mind if
a
thread went on for "many days" and maybe
20+ posts and the OP just couldn't "get it" then to offer your "for
charge"
services as long as you made it clear there would be a fee." Is it 10
replies or 20+ posts before you "allow" me to offer fee-based help?
You're
certainly not being clear. Further,
your current response is inconsistent with another MVP's opinion. Doug
Steele said, "I will grant you that the words in Rules of Conduct for
this
group, as posted at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ga...RulesofConduct
can be interpretted, should you choose to, as letting you advertise: "We
ask
that you refrain from posting advertisements or solicitations that do not
pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup or
chat."
Your statement number 2 is contrary to what Doug says. Finally, you are
literally correct in your statement number 1 but totally in error in its
meaning. The newsgroups are full of advertising! There's all the
following:
o MS Access MVP
o "See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs."
o "John Viescas, author
"Building Microsoft Access Applications" (Coming Soon!)
"Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out"
"Running Microsoft Access 2000"
"SQL Queries for Mere Mortals"
o David Lloyd
MCSD .NET
http://LemingtonConsulting.com
and the list goes on and on to where religious retreats are advertised by
a
MVP who
frequently responds to the newsgroups. You see all of this advertising in
the newsgroups on a daily basis.

So you see that your arguments don't hold water and what you are saying
does
not make sense.

Steve


"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
I don't care what other words mean. Why do you dodge the meaning of
advertise? That was the object of our discussion pertaining to #1.

How could I have lost touch with newsgroups' core purpose? My emotion
took
over once when you took a comment from Ken Snell way out of context. I
called you an idiot or something for which I apologized. Your "actions"
deserved to be called stupid and/or idiotic but not necessarily your
person as a whole.

Just because your advertising works doesn't mean it isn't advertising.

I believe there is no hope for you. You continually offer tangential
statements that aren't relative to the current point (that you use
public
newsgroups to advertise). You are too proud or poor or stubborn to admit
that:
1) what you are doing is advertising in public newsgroups
2) netiquette suggests that advertising in public newsgroups is not
acceptable

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Offer
Particularly note 2b!!
1.. To present for acceptance or rejection; proffer: offered me a
drink.
2.. a) To put forward for consideration; propose: offer an opinion.
b) To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a
requirement

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Help

1.
a) The act or an instance of helping.
b) Aid or assistance.
2. Relief; remedy.

You have completely lost touch with what the newsgroups' core purpose
really is.!!

In the time you have spent dogging me you could have used your
Access/database knowledge to help a multitude of Access users with
problems who came to the newsgroups seeking help solving their
problems.
This is one of the reasons 1000 Access users came to me in the past
four
years willing to pay me for help with their problems. You don't get
it!!
You have left your emotion take over just like in your previous
response
where you called me an idiot. In the past you condemned Arno R for his
tactics and now you have become just the same. Respect for you is
quickly
fading!

Steve



"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
1. Your intelligence level is peeking out
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advertise
2.-6. Your attempt to redefine netiquette.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--
Microsoft Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote:

1. "Contact me at my email address below if you would like outside
help
with this. My fees are very reasonable" IS NOT advertising!

2. 11 requests for fee based help since I posted #1 to Sharan in
this
thread on 10/7

3. 1000 completed requests for fee based help in the last four years

4. I judiciously only make an offer of fee-based help where it
appears
highly unlikely that a poster will get a solution to his post or
where
it
appears highly unlikely that the poster will be able to get a
solution
to
his post on his own.

5. Ten fold responses of free advice/support

6. 2 & 3 are clearly in the spirit of the newsgroups to provide a
resource
for Access users to find solutions to their problems

If it will ease your mind, I will put in the subject "Offer of
fee-based
help"

Steve

Steve,

...what specific published guidelines are you referring to?
The code of conduct, of which you are well aware.

I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this
I can't help that, but it does happen.

...In the time you spent writing this response to me...
As I'm using a different machine right now, I don't have all the post
histories, so I have no idea what her original problem was. I posted here
because you are still advertising your wares on a free newsgroup.

...your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no
validity
Untrue, and an irrelevence.

OK, I can see there's no reasoning with the likes of you. You know what
you're doing is unethical, but you just don't care. You make money of the
poor souls who come here seeking help, and that's all you care about. I call
you unethical, and you offer no concrete argument to the contrary. Little
wonder you've NEVER even been considered for an MVP award.

plonk!

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia



"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Graham,

I take issue with what you say.
1. a) In the first sentence, what specific published guidelines are you
referring to?
b) Where in the guidelines does it say "Thou shall not drum up
business"?

2. You say, "...we may offer to help them offline..."
a) I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this. You could
probably count on one hand how many times an offer like this was made in
the newsgroups in the past eight months. Case in point, you are about the
eighth MVP that has responded in this thread. Undoubtedly numerous other
MVPs have read this thread. Do you see one MVP offering to help Sharan
offline? This is the exact point I made to Duane in a previous response to
him when I said that he could have helped numerous posters solve their
problems in the time he has spent dogging me. You have demonstrated keen
expertise with Access in the posts you have made to the newsgroups. In the
time you spent writing this response to me, you could have written
detailed instructions to Sharan on how to at least begin to solve his
problem. Sharan still has his problem as far as anyone can tell.
b) A goodly number of posters post through discussions.microsoft.com
and accessmonster.com. There's no way to email these posters offline. So
if offers by MVPs to help offline rarely appear in the newsgroups and
there's no way to email posters who post through discussions.microsoft.com
and accessmonster.com, your statement, "...we may offer to help them
offline..." has no validity.

Finally,
When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a
"service" - not offering "help".

(c) advise the OP and offer our professional services.

So, MVPs "offer" professional services and since I am not an MVP, I
"solicit" a service?

Steve


"Graham R Seach" wrote in message
...
Steve,

The issue here is that you blatantly try to drum up business via the
newsgroups, and that is clearly in breach of the guidelines (and thereby,
its ethics). The newsgroups are meant to offer *free* help. The MVPs try
to solve the OPs problem in the newsgroups, for free. If that fails, we
may offer to help them offline, but the inference and intention is always
that that offline help is also free, in the spirit of the newsgroups.
Having said that, we'll sometimes find that the (now offline) problem
requires more time and resources than can be reasonably expected for
free, so we either (a) escalate it to Microsoft, (b) provide references
to other resources (free or fee-based), or (c) advise the OP and offer
our professional services.

Our principal objection with you is that you go straight to offering a
*fee-based service*, without first exhausting the many other *free*
resources still available, and without attempting to solve the issue
offline for free. Your statement that you have completed 1000 fee-based
requests for help in the past 4 years may be true (I don't know), but it
is irrelevent, because of itself, that fact is not evidence that what
you're doing is ethical. I suggest also that your use of the word
"requests" is a tad generous, because it's you who is making the
request - not the OP.

You emphasised the words "offer" and "help" in your response to Duane.
When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a
"service" - not offering "help". That's it in a nutshell, and that's what
we object to.

We applaud the many free and helpful posts that you make in these
newsgroups, and certainly don't have any issue with listing your business
as part of your signature line. No-one objects to you earning a living;
we all have to do that, but when you start charging the instant the
(previously free) problem needs to go offline - that amounts to using the
newsgroups to generate business leads. I for one have never seen you
offer to take an OP's problem offline for free (you may have - I've just
never seen it).

The ethics of this matter are simple; Since you start helping for free -
finish helping for free - except of course when the problem ultimately
proves too much to reasonably expect for free, and after all other free
resources have been exhausted. Don't just go for straight for the
fee-based service.

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...
Duane,

Your first sentence speaks volumes about your letting your emotion rule
your
thinking! That's exactly what I mean about you losing touch with
newsgroups'
core purpose. The two words are OFFER and HELP. These two words go to
the
heart of what the newsgroups are about and you are rejecting the
concept.
OFFER is defined (from your own dictionary) as "To present in order to
meet
a need or satisfy a requirement" and HELP is defined as "Relief; remedy
(sic
solution to Access related problem)". When you say you don't care what
these
words mean you are syaing you don't care whether the Access users who
come
to the newsgroups to find solutions to their problems get a solution or
not.
I present the Access users an alternative to getting a solution to their
Access related problem that they can accept or reject. It takes up a
mere
line and a half. 1000 Access users have chosen this alternative and have
gotten a solution to their Access related problem.

Your emotion has taken over to such a degree that you have lost all
consistency in what you are saying. Here's a quote of what you said at
the
beginning of this thread, "I would not have criticized you if this
thread
was about 10 replies long and it was clear that the OP needed to find a
contractor." And in your current response you have turned one hundred
and
eighty degrees and are carte blanc criticizing everything I do.
Additionally, in another place you said, "I personally would not mind if
a
thread went on for "many days" and maybe
20+ posts and the OP just couldn't "get it" then to offer your "for
charge"
services as long as you made it clear there would be a fee." Is it 10
replies or 20+ posts before you "allow" me to offer fee-based help?
You're
certainly not being clear. Further,
your current response is inconsistent with another MVP's opinion. Doug
Steele said, "I will grant you that the words in Rules of Conduct for
this
group, as posted at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ga...RulesofConduct
can be interpretted, should you choose to, as letting you advertise: "We
ask
that you refrain from posting advertisements or solicitations that do
not
pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup or
chat."
Your statement number 2 is contrary to what Doug says. Finally, you are
literally correct in your statement number 1 but totally in error in its
meaning. The newsgroups are full of advertising! There's all the
following:
o MS Access MVP
o "See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs."
o "John Viescas, author
"Building Microsoft Access Applications" (Coming Soon!)
"Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out"
"Running Microsoft Access 2000"
"SQL Queries for Mere Mortals"
o David Lloyd
MCSD .NET
http://LemingtonConsulting.com
and the list goes on and on to where religious retreats are advertised
by a
MVP who
frequently responds to the newsgroups. You see all of this advertising
in
the newsgroups on a daily basis.

So you see that your arguments don't hold water and what you are saying
does
not make sense.

Steve


"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
I don't care what other words mean. Why do you dodge the meaning of
advertise? That was the object of our discussion pertaining to #1.

How could I have lost touch with newsgroups' core purpose? My emotion
took
over once when you took a comment from Ken Snell way out of context. I
called you an idiot or something for which I apologized. Your "actions"
deserved to be called stupid and/or idiotic but not necessarily your
person as a whole.

Just because your advertising works doesn't mean it isn't advertising.

I believe there is no hope for you. You continually offer tangential
statements that aren't relative to the current point (that you use
public
newsgroups to advertise). You are too proud or poor or stubborn to
admit
that:
1) what you are doing is advertising in public newsgroups
2) netiquette suggests that advertising in public newsgroups is not
acceptable

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Offer
Particularly note 2b!!
1.. To present for acceptance or rejection; proffer: offered me a
drink.
2.. a) To put forward for consideration; propose: offer an
opinion.
b) To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a
requirement

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Help

1.
a) The act or an instance of helping.
b) Aid or assistance.
2. Relief; remedy.

You have completely lost touch with what the newsgroups' core purpose
really is.!!

In the time you have spent dogging me you could have used your
Access/database knowledge to help a multitude of Access users with
problems who came to the newsgroups seeking help solving their
problems.
This is one of the reasons 1000 Access users came to me in the past
four
years willing to pay me for help with their problems. You don't get
it!!
You have left your emotion take over just like in your previous
response
where you called me an idiot. In the past you condemned Arno R for his
tactics and now you have become just the same. Respect for you is
quickly
fading!

Steve



"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
1. Your intelligence level is peeking out
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advertise
2.-6. Your attempt to redefine netiquette.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--
Microsoft Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote:

1. "Contact me at my email address below if you would like outside
help
with this. My fees are very reasonable" IS NOT advertising!

2. 11 requests for fee based help since I posted #1 to Sharan in
this
thread on 10/7

3. 1000 completed requests for fee based help in the last four
years

4. I judiciously only make an offer of fee-based help where it
appears
highly unlikely that a poster will get a solution to his post or
where
it
appears highly unlikely that the poster will be able to get a
solution
to
his post on his own.

5. Ten fold responses of free advice/support

6. 2 & 3 are clearly in the spirit of the newsgroups to provide a
resource
for Access users to find solutions to their problems

If it will ease your mind, I will put in the subject "Offer of
fee-based
help"

Steve

"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...
Previously you criticized my offers of help because I did not explicitly
state they were fee-based. Now that I clearly state my offer is fee based.
you say that they are harassing users.

You were not criticized because you did not explicitly STATE they were
fee-based, it was because in a newsgroup provided for free help, your help
came at a price.

Why don't you explain how a fee-based offer of help "harasses" users.

These newsgroups were provided for users to obtain free help, anything else
is harrassment.

John... Visio MVP

"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...
Marsh,

You still haven't given me an answer.

Steve

and you have not apoligized to Ken Getz, F. Scott Barker's and Alison Balter
for implying that including free code with their books was a particuarly
slimy thing for them to do?

John... Visio MVP