Multidimensional Forms/Tables

"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net...
Your argument doesn't hold water! For four years I have been posting my
offer for help and you have not seen any sign of your doomsday prediction
that the newsgroups would collapse.

It just shows that other users of these newsgroups have respect for the
spirit of providing free support.

You criticize me for making offers to help other Access users but consider
the following statistics
....
In the months of July through September, there were 67 posts to these
newsgroups that were pure spam. ... This was three times as many posts I
made offering fee-based help.

Irelevant, proving that others ignored the rules does not justify your
actions.

You follow all these newsgroups and I did not see where once you responded
to any of them about advertising or the Rules Of Conduct for the
newsgroups.

There are other means of dealing with spam and the spam posters never see or
care about any rebuttal messages that are posted.

What has actually happened is that the number of Access users who have
come to me for help and are willing to pay me a fee...

Irelevant, the number of your victims still does not justify your actions.

2. Making offers of fee-based help carries the obligation to also give
free advice/support in the newsgroups. This takes significant time. I give
tenfold free advice/support in the newsgroups.

Nonsense, the only obligation is to line your pockets. You are only
providing free help to justify the money you make by soliciting in
newsgroups that are provided for users to obtain help for free. Do you
actually send a cheque to Microsoft for providing these newsgroups as a
means for you to make money?

3. Contract programmers bill at a high fee per hour. One recent user who
came to me for fee-based help said several MVPs from the newsgroups
contacted him and their fees were three to five times higher than mine.

Irrelevant, the issue is about soliciting work. As to the rates, you get
what you pay for.

4. Contract programmers bill at an hourly rate an are very reluctant to
deviate from it. I do all my work for a fixed fee so that the customer
knows from the beginning what his total cost will be.

Irrelevant, we are still talking about soliciting in newsgroups that are
provided so that users can get free help.

The Rules Of Conduct state, "Please avoid personal attacks, slurs, and
profanity in your interactions." Your crusade of dogging all my posts to
the newsgroups have become akin to the conduct of Arno R. Your
counterposts to my posts are personal attacks against me and have become
filled with slurs against me. Your conduct is clearly in violation of the
Rules Of Conduct.

Pointing out your attempts at ambulance chasing are not personal attacks or
slurs.

For the umpteenth time, these newsgroups are provided by Microsoft so that
users can provide and recieve free assistance with Microsoft products, not
as a vehicle for individuals to make money. Most users respect this fact.
Those users who add extra information to their signature line do so to add
credence to their answers or give readers an idea of who they are dealing
with.

John... Visio MVP

Spot on, John

WSF


John Marshall, MVP wrote:
"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your argument doesn't hold water! For four years I have been posting my
offer for help and you have not seen any sign of your doomsday prediction
that the newsgroups would collapse.


It just shows that other users of these newsgroups have respect for the
spirit of providing free support.


You criticize me for making offers to help other Access users but consider
the following statistics

...

In the months of July through September, there were 67 posts to these
newsgroups that were pure spam. ... This was three times as many posts I
made offering fee-based help.


Irelevant, proving that others ignored the rules does not justify your
actions.


You follow all these newsgroups and I did not see where once you responded
to any of them about advertising or the Rules Of Conduct for the
newsgroups.


There are other means of dealing with spam and the spam posters never see or
care about any rebuttal messages that are posted.


What has actually happened is that the number of Access users who have
come to me for help and are willing to pay me a fee...


Irelevant, the number of your victims still does not justify your actions.


2. Making offers of fee-based help carries the obligation to also give
free advice/support in the newsgroups. This takes significant time. I give
tenfold free advice/support in the newsgroups.


Nonsense, the only obligation is to line your pockets. You are only
providing free help to justify the money you make by soliciting in
newsgroups that are provided for users to obtain help for free. Do you
actually send a cheque to Microsoft for providing these newsgroups as a
means for you to make money?


3. Contract programmers bill at a high fee per hour. One recent user who
came to me for fee-based help said several MVPs from the newsgroups
contacted him and their fees were three to five times higher than mine.


Irrelevant, the issue is about soliciting work. As to the rates, you get
what you pay for.


4. Contract programmers bill at an hourly rate an are very reluctant to
deviate from it. I do all my work for a fixed fee so that the customer
knows from the beginning what his total cost will be.


Irrelevant, we are still talking about soliciting in newsgroups that are
provided so that users can get free help.


The Rules Of Conduct state, "Please avoid personal attacks, slurs, and
profanity in your interactions." Your crusade of dogging all my posts to
the newsgroups have become akin to the conduct of Arno R. Your
counterposts to my posts are personal attacks against me and have become
filled with slurs against me. Your conduct is clearly in violation of the
Rules Of Conduct.


Pointing out your attempts at ambulance chasing are not personal attacks or
slurs.

For the umpteenth time, these newsgroups are provided by Microsoft so that
users can provide and recieve free assistance with Microsoft products, not
as a vehicle for individuals to make money. Most users respect this fact.
Those users who add extra information to their signature line do so to add
credence to their answers or give readers an idea of who they are dealing
with.

John... Visio MVP

Graham,
I have to take exception to your use of the word "Plonk".
I will have you know that I, and probably a great many of your fellow
Ockers, have taken great pleasure from our imbibing of the good Dallie
drop. A least offensive term, and to be politically correct, I reckon
you should've used the term "Whacker".

WSF
NZL


Graham R Seach wrote:
Steve,

...what specific published guidelines are you referring to?
The code of conduct, of which you are well aware.

I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this
I can't help that, but it does happen.

...In the time you spent writing this response to me...
As I'm using a different machine right now, I don't have all the post
histories, so I have no idea what her original problem was. I posted here
because you are still advertising your wares on a free newsgroup.

...your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no
validity
Untrue, and an irrelevence.

OK, I can see there's no reasoning with the likes of you. You know what
you're doing is unethical, but you just don't care. You make money of the
poor souls who come here seeking help, and that's all you care about. I call
you unethical, and you offer no concrete argument to the contrary. Little
wonder you've NEVER even been considered for an MVP award.

plonk!

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia



"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Graham,

I take issue with what you say.
1. a) In the first sentence, what specific published guidelines are you
referring to?
b) Where in the guidelines does it say "Thou shall not drum up
business"?

2. You say, "...we may offer to help them offline..."
a) I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this. You could
probably count on one hand how many times an offer like this was made in
the newsgroups in the past eight months. Case in point, you are about the
eighth MVP that has responded in this thread. Undoubtedly numerous other
MVPs have read this thread. Do you see one MVP offering to help Sharan
offline? This is the exact point I made to Duane in a previous response to
him when I said that he could have helped numerous posters solve their
problems in the time he has spent dogging me. You have demonstrated keen
expertise with Access in the posts you have made to the newsgroups. In the
time you spent writing this response to me, you could have written
detailed instructions to Sharan on how to at least begin to solve his
problem. Sharan still has his problem as far as anyone can tell.
b) A goodly number of posters post through discussions.microsoft.com
and accessmonster.com. There's no way to email these posters offline. So
if offers by MVPs to help offline rarely appear in the newsgroups and
there's no way to email posters who post through discussions.microsoft.com
and accessmonster.com, your statement, "...we may offer to help them
offline..." has no validity.

Finally,
When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a
"service" - not offering "help".

(c) advise the OP and offer our professional services.

So, MVPs "offer" professional services and since I am not an MVP, I
"solicit" a service?

Steve


"Graham R Seach" wrote in message
...

Steve,

The issue here is that you blatantly try to drum up business via the
newsgroups, and that is clearly in breach of the guidelines (and thereby,
its ethics). The newsgroups are meant to offer *free* help. The MVPs try
to solve the OPs problem in the newsgroups, for free. If that fails, we
may offer to help them offline, but the inference and intention is always
that that offline help is also free, in the spirit of the newsgroups.
Having said that, we'll sometimes find that the (now offline) problem
requires more time and resources than can be reasonably expected for
free, so we either (a) escalate it to Microsoft, (b) provide references
to other resources (free or fee-based), or (c) advise the OP and offer
our professional services.

Our principal objection with you is that you go straight to offering a
*fee-based service*, without first exhausting the many other *free*
resources still available, and without attempting to solve the issue
offline for free. Your statement that you have completed 1000 fee-based
requests for help in the past 4 years may be true (I don't know), but it
is irrelevent, because of itself, that fact is not evidence that what
you're doing is ethical. I suggest also that your use of the word
"requests" is a tad generous, because it's you who is making the
request - not the OP.

You emphasised the words "offer" and "help" in your response to Duane.
When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a
"service" - not offering "help". That's it in a nutshell, and that's what
we object to.

We applaud the many free and helpful posts that you make in these
newsgroups, and certainly don't have any issue with listing your business
as part of your signature line. No-one objects to you earning a living;
we all have to do that, but when you start charging the instant the
(previously free) problem needs to go offline - that amounts to using the
newsgroups to generate business leads. I for one have never seen you
offer to take an OP's problem offline for free (you may have - I've just
never seen it).

The ethics of this matter are simple; Since you start helping for free -
finish helping for free - except of course when the problem ultimately
proves too much to reasonably expect for free, and after all other free
resources have been exhausted. Don't just go for straight for the
fee-based service.

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

Duane,

Your first sentence speaks volumes about your letting your emotion rule
your
thinking! That's exactly what I mean about you losing touch with
newsgroups'
core purpose. The two words are OFFER and HELP. These two words go to
the
heart of what the newsgroups are about and you are rejecting the
concept.
OFFER is defined (from your own dictionary) as "To present in order to
meet
a need or satisfy a requirement" and HELP is defined as "Relief; remedy
(sic
solution to Access related problem)". When you say you don't care what
these
words mean you are syaing you don't care whether the Access users who
come
to the newsgroups to find solutions to their problems get a solution or
not.
I present the Access users an alternative to getting a solution to their
Access related problem that they can accept or reject. It takes up a
mere
line and a half. 1000 Access users have chosen this alternative and have
gotten a solution to their Access related problem.

Your emotion has taken over to such a degree that you have lost all
consistency in what you are saying. Here's a quote of what you said at
the
beginning of this thread, "I would not have criticized you if this
thread
was about 10 replies long and it was clear that the OP needed to find a
contractor." And in your current response you have turned one hundred
and
eighty degrees and are carte blanc criticizing everything I do.
Additionally, in another place you said, "I personally would not mind if
a
thread went on for "many days" and maybe
20+ posts and the OP just couldn't "get it" then to offer your "for
charge"
services as long as you made it clear there would be a fee." Is it 10
replies or 20+ posts before you "allow" me to offer fee-based help?
You're
certainly not being clear. Further,
your current response is inconsistent with another MVP's opinion. Doug
Steele said, "I will grant you that the words in Rules of Conduct for
this
group, as posted at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ga...RulesofConduct
can be interpretted, should you choose to, as letting you advertise: "We
ask
that you refrain from posting advertisements or solicitations that do
not
pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup or
chat."
Your statement number 2 is contrary to what Doug says. Finally, you are
literally correct in your statement number 1 but totally in error in its
meaning. The newsgroups are full of advertising! There's all the
following:
o MS Access MVP
o "See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs."
o "John Viescas, author
"Building Microsoft Access Applications" (Coming Soon!)
"Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out"
"Running Microsoft Access 2000"
"SQL Queries for Mere Mortals"
o David Lloyd
MCSD .NET
http://LemingtonConsulting.com
and the list goes on and on to where religious retreats are advertised
by a
MVP who
frequently responds to the newsgroups. You see all of this advertising
in
the newsgroups on a daily basis.

So you see that your arguments don't hold water and what you are saying
does
not make sense.

Steve


"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
.. .

I don't care what other words mean. Why do you dodge the meaning of
advertise? That was the object of our discussion pertaining to #1.

How could I have lost touch with newsgroups' core purpose? My emotion
took
over once when you took a comment from Ken Snell way out of context. I
called you an idiot or something for which I apologized. Your "actions"
deserved to be called stupid and/or idiotic but not necessarily your
person as a whole.

Just because your advertising works doesn't mean it isn't advertising.

I believe there is no hope for you. You continually offer tangential
statements that aren't relative to the current point (that you use
public
newsgroups to advertise). You are too proud or poor or stubborn to
admit
that:
1) what you are doing is advertising in public newsgroups
2) netiquette suggests that advertising in public newsgroups is not
acceptable

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
arthlink.net...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Offer
Particularly note 2b!!
1.. To present for acceptance or rejection; proffer: offered me a
drink.
2.. a) To put forward for consideration; propose: offer an
opinion.
b) To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a
requirement

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Help

1.
a) The act or an instance of helping.
b) Aid or assistance.
2. Relief; remedy.

You have completely lost touch with what the newsgroups' core purpose
really is.!!

In the time you have spent dogging me you could have used your
Access/database knowledge to help a multitude of Access users with
problems who came to the newsgroups seeking help solving their
problems.
This is one of the reasons 1000 Access users came to me in the past
four
years willing to pay me for help with their problems. You don't get
it!!
You have left your emotion take over just like in your previous
response
where you called me an idiot. In the past you condemned Arno R for his
tactics and now you have become just the same. Respect for you is
quickly
fading!

Steve



"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...

1. Your intelligence level is peeking out
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advertise
2.-6. Your attempt to redefine netiquette.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--
Microsoft Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote:


1. "Contact me at my email address below if you would like outside
help
with this. My fees are very reasonable" IS NOT advertising!

2. 11 requests for fee based help since I posted #1 to Sharan in
this
thread on 10/7

3. 1000 completed requests for fee based help in the last four
years

4. I judiciously only make an offer of fee-based help where it
appears
highly unlikely that a poster will get a solution to his post or
where
it
appears highly unlikely that the poster will be able to get a
solution
to
his post on his own.

5. Ten fold responses of free advice/support

6. 2 & 3 are clearly in the spirit of the newsgroups to provide a
resource
for Access users to find solutions to their problems

If it will ease your mind, I will put in the subject "Offer of
fee-based
help"

Steve

I should have added - that's spelt with a "c"

WSF wrote:
Graham,
I have to take exception to your use of the word "Plonk".
I will have you know that I, and probably a great many of your fellow
Ockers, have taken great pleasure from our imbibing of the good Dallie
drop. A least offensive term, and to be politically correct, I reckon
you should've used the term "Whacker".

WSF
NZL


Graham R Seach wrote:

Steve,

...what specific published guidelines are you referring to?
The code of conduct, of which you are well aware.

I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this
I can't help that, but it does happen.

...In the time you spent writing this response to me...
As I'm using a different machine right now, I don't have all the post
histories, so I have no idea what her original problem was. I posted
here because you are still advertising your wares on a free newsgroup.

...your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no
validity
Untrue, and an irrelevence.

OK, I can see there's no reasoning with the likes of you. You know
what you're doing is unethical, but you just don't care. You make
money of the poor souls who come here seeking help, and that's all you
care about. I call you unethical, and you offer no concrete argument
to the contrary. Little wonder you've NEVER even been considered for
an MVP award.

plonk!

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia



"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Graham,

I take issue with what you say.
1. a) In the first sentence, what specific published guidelines are
you referring to?
b) Where in the guidelines does it say "Thou shall not drum up
business"?

2. You say, "...we may offer to help them offline..."
a) I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this. You
could probably count on one hand how many times an offer like this
was made in the newsgroups in the past eight months. Case in point,
you are about the eighth MVP that has responded in this thread.
Undoubtedly numerous other MVPs have read this thread. Do you see one
MVP offering to help Sharan offline? This is the exact point I made
to Duane in a previous response to him when I said that he could have
helped numerous posters solve their problems in the time he has spent
dogging me. You have demonstrated keen expertise with Access in the
posts you have made to the newsgroups. In the time you spent writing
this response to me, you could have written detailed instructions to
Sharan on how to at least begin to solve his problem. Sharan still
has his problem as far as anyone can tell.
b) A goodly number of posters post through
discussions.microsoft.com and accessmonster.com. There's no way to
email these posters offline. So if offers by MVPs to help offline
rarely appear in the newsgroups and there's no way to email posters
who post through discussions.microsoft.com and accessmonster.com,
your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no
validity.

Finally,
When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a
"service" - not offering "help".

(c) advise the OP and offer our professional services.

So, MVPs "offer" professional services and since I am not an MVP, I
"solicit" a service?

Steve


"Graham R Seach" wrote in message
...

Steve,

The issue here is that you blatantly try to drum up business via the
newsgroups, and that is clearly in breach of the guidelines (and
thereby, its ethics). The newsgroups are meant to offer *free* help.
The MVPs try to solve the OPs problem in the newsgroups, for free.
If that fails, we may offer to help them offline, but the inference
and intention is always that that offline help is also free, in the
spirit of the newsgroups. Having said that, we'll sometimes find
that the (now offline) problem requires more time and resources than
can be reasonably expected for free, so we either (a) escalate it to
Microsoft, (b) provide references to other resources (free or
fee-based), or (c) advise the OP and offer our professional services.

Our principal objection with you is that you go straight to offering
a *fee-based service*, without first exhausting the many other
*free* resources still available, and without attempting to solve
the issue offline for free. Your statement that you have completed
1000 fee-based requests for help in the past 4 years may be true (I
don't know), but it is irrelevent, because of itself, that fact is
not evidence that what you're doing is ethical. I suggest also that
your use of the word "requests" is a tad generous, because it's you
who is making the request - not the OP.

You emphasised the words "offer" and "help" in your response to
Duane. When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are
soliciting a "service" - not offering "help". That's it in a
nutshell, and that's what we object to.

We applaud the many free and helpful posts that you make in these
newsgroups, and certainly don't have any issue with listing your
business as part of your signature line. No-one objects to you
earning a living; we all have to do that, but when you start
charging the instant the (previously free) problem needs to go
offline - that amounts to using the newsgroups to generate business
leads. I for one have never seen you offer to take an OP's problem
offline for free (you may have - I've just never seen it).

The ethics of this matter are simple; Since you start helping for
free - finish helping for free - except of course when the problem
ultimately proves too much to reasonably expect for free, and after
all other free resources have been exhausted. Don't just go for
straight for the fee-based service.

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...

Duane,

Your first sentence speaks volumes about your letting your emotion
rule your
thinking! That's exactly what I mean about you losing touch with
newsgroups'
core purpose. The two words are OFFER and HELP. These two words go
to the
heart of what the newsgroups are about and you are rejecting the
concept.
OFFER is defined (from your own dictionary) as "To present in
order to meet
a need or satisfy a requirement" and HELP is defined as "Relief;
remedy (sic
solution to Access related problem)". When you say you don't care
what these
words mean you are syaing you don't care whether the Access users
who come
to the newsgroups to find solutions to their problems get a
solution or not.
I present the Access users an alternative to getting a solution to
their
Access related problem that they can accept or reject. It takes up
a mere
line and a half. 1000 Access users have chosen this alternative and
have
gotten a solution to their Access related problem.

Your emotion has taken over to such a degree that you have lost all
consistency in what you are saying. Here's a quote of what you said
at the
beginning of this thread, "I would not have criticized you if this
thread
was about 10 replies long and it was clear that the OP needed to
find a
contractor." And in your current response you have turned one
hundred and
eighty degrees and are carte blanc criticizing everything I do.
Additionally, in another place you said, "I personally would not
mind if a
thread went on for "many days" and maybe
20+ posts and the OP just couldn't "get it" then to offer your "for
charge"
services as long as you made it clear there would be a fee." Is it 10
replies or 20+ posts before you "allow" me to offer fee-based help?
You're
certainly not being clear. Further,
your current response is inconsistent with another MVP's opinion. Doug
Steele said, "I will grant you that the words in Rules of Conduct
for this
group, as posted at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ga...RulesofConduct

can be interpretted, should you choose to, as letting you
advertise: "We ask
that you refrain from posting advertisements or solicitations that
do not
pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup
or chat."
Your statement number 2 is contrary to what Doug says. Finally, you
are
literally correct in your statement number 1 but totally in error
in its
meaning. The newsgroups are full of advertising! There's all the
following:
o MS Access MVP
o "See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs."
o "John Viescas, author
"Building Microsoft Access Applications" (Coming Soon!)
"Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out"
"Running Microsoft Access 2000"
"SQL Queries for Mere Mortals"
o David Lloyd
MCSD .NET
http://LemingtonConsulting.com
and the list goes on and on to where religious retreats are
advertised by a
MVP who
frequently responds to the newsgroups. You see all of this
advertising in
the newsgroups on a daily basis.

So you see that your arguments don't hold water and what you are
saying does
not make sense.

Steve


"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...

I don't care what other words mean. Why do you dodge the meaning of
advertise? That was the object of our discussion pertaining to #1.

How could I have lost touch with newsgroups' core purpose? My
emotion took
over once when you took a comment from Ken Snell way out of
context. I
called you an idiot or something for which I apologized. Your
"actions"
deserved to be called stupid and/or idiotic but not necessarily your
person as a whole.

Just because your advertising works doesn't mean it isn't
advertising.

I believe there is no hope for you. You continually offer tangential
statements that aren't relative to the current point (that you use
public
newsgroups to advertise). You are too proud or poor or stubborn to
admit
that:
1) what you are doing is advertising in public newsgroups
2) netiquette suggests that advertising in public newsgroups is not
acceptable

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Offer
Particularly note 2b!!
1.. To present for acceptance or rejection; proffer: offered me a
drink.
2.. a) To put forward for consideration; propose: offer an
opinion.
b) To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a
requirement

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Help

1.
a) The act or an instance of helping.
b) Aid or assistance.
2. Relief; remedy.

You have completely lost touch with what the newsgroups' core
purpose
really is.!!

In the time you have spent dogging me you could have used your
Access/database knowledge to help a multitude of Access users with
problems who came to the newsgroups seeking help solving their
problems.
This is one of the reasons 1000 Access users came to me in the
past four
years willing to pay me for help with their problems. You don't
get it!!
You have left your emotion take over just like in your previous
response
where you called me an idiot. In the past you condemned Arno R
for his
tactics and now you have become just the same. Respect for you is
quickly
fading!

Steve



"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...

1. Your intelligence level is peeking out
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advertise
2.-6. Your attempt to redefine netiquette.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--
Microsoft Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote:


1. "Contact me at my email address below if you would like
outside
help
with this. My fees are very reasonable" IS NOT advertising!

2. 11 requests for fee based help since I posted #1 to Sharan
in this
thread on 10/7

3. 1000 completed requests for fee based help in the last four
years

4. I judiciously only make an offer of fee-based help where it
appears
highly unlikely that a poster will get a solution to his post
or where
it
appears highly unlikely that the poster will be able to get a
solution
to
his post on his own.

5. Ten fold responses of free advice/support

6. 2 & 3 are clearly in the spirit of the newsgroups to provide a
resource
for Access users to find solutions to their problems

If it will ease your mind, I will put in the subject "Offer of
fee-based
help"

Steve

In this case, Graham is using plonk as the sound of an annoying newsgroup
user falling into Graham's killfile. The next time Graham downloads message
from the newsgroup, the killfile will remove any messages from PCD so Graham
will never see them. This will include any requests for help from PCD.

Next time I see Graham, I'll offer him something slightly better to drink.

John... Visio MVP

"WSF" wrote in message
...
Graham,
I have to take exception to your use of the word "Plonk".
I will have you know that I, and probably a great many of your fellow
Ockers, have taken great pleasure from our imbibing of the good Dallie
drop. A least offensive term, and to be politically correct, I reckon you
should've used the term "Whacker".

WSF
NZL

Where does THIS come from?


"John Marshall, MVP" wrote in message
...
"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...
Marsh,

You still haven't given me an answer.

Steve

and you have not apoligized to Ken Getz, F. Scott Barker's and Alison
Balter for implying that including free code with their books was a
particuarly slimy thing for them to do?

John... Visio MVP

Checkmate!

You lose.



"Graham R Seach" wrote in message
...
Steve,

...what specific published guidelines are you referring to?
The code of conduct, of which you are well aware.

I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this
I can't help that, but it does happen.

...In the time you spent writing this response to me...
As I'm using a different machine right now, I don't have all the post
histories, so I have no idea what her original problem was. I posted here
because you are still advertising your wares on a free newsgroup.

...your statement, "...we may offer to help them offline..." has no
validity
Untrue, and an irrelevence.

OK, I can see there's no reasoning with the likes of you. You know what
you're doing is unethical, but you just don't care. You make money of the
poor souls who come here seeking help, and that's all you care about. I
call you unethical, and you offer no concrete argument to the contrary.
Little wonder you've NEVER even been considered for an MVP award.

plonk!

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia



"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Graham,

I take issue with what you say.
1. a) In the first sentence, what specific published guidelines are you
referring to?
b) Where in the guidelines does it say "Thou shall not drum up
business"?

2. You say, "...we may offer to help them offline..."
a) I can't remember the last time I saw an offer like this. You
could probably count on one hand how many times an offer like this was
made in the newsgroups in the past eight months. Case in point, you are
about the eighth MVP that has responded in this thread. Undoubtedly
numerous other MVPs have read this thread. Do you see one MVP offering to
help Sharan offline? This is the exact point I made to Duane in a
previous response to him when I said that he could have helped numerous
posters solve their problems in the time he has spent dogging me. You
have demonstrated keen expertise with Access in the posts you have made
to the newsgroups. In the time you spent writing this response to me, you
could have written detailed instructions to Sharan on how to at least
begin to solve his problem. Sharan still has his problem as far as anyone
can tell.
b) A goodly number of posters post through discussions.microsoft.com
and accessmonster.com. There's no way to email these posters offline. So
if offers by MVPs to help offline rarely appear in the newsgroups and
there's no way to email posters who post through
discussions.microsoft.com and accessmonster.com, your statement, "...we
may offer to help them offline..." has no validity.

Finally,
When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a
"service" - not offering "help".

(c) advise the OP and offer our professional services.

So, MVPs "offer" professional services and since I am not an MVP, I
"solicit" a service?

Steve


"Graham R Seach" wrote in message
...
Steve,

The issue here is that you blatantly try to drum up business via the
newsgroups, and that is clearly in breach of the guidelines (and
thereby, its ethics). The newsgroups are meant to offer *free* help. The
MVPs try to solve the OPs problem in the newsgroups, for free. If that
fails, we may offer to help them offline, but the inference and
intention is always that that offline help is also free, in the spirit
of the newsgroups. Having said that, we'll sometimes find that the (now
offline) problem requires more time and resources than can be reasonably
expected for free, so we either (a) escalate it to Microsoft, (b)
provide references to other resources (free or fee-based), or (c) advise
the OP and offer our professional services.

Our principal objection with you is that you go straight to offering a
*fee-based service*, without first exhausting the many other *free*
resources still available, and without attempting to solve the issue
offline for free. Your statement that you have completed 1000 fee-based
requests for help in the past 4 years may be true (I don't know), but it
is irrelevent, because of itself, that fact is not evidence that what
you're doing is ethical. I suggest also that your use of the word
"requests" is a tad generous, because it's you who is making the
request - not the OP.

You emphasised the words "offer" and "help" in your response to Duane.
When you go straight to the fee-based "offer", you are soliciting a
"service" - not offering "help". That's it in a nutshell, and that's
what we object to.

We applaud the many free and helpful posts that you make in these
newsgroups, and certainly don't have any issue with listing your
business as part of your signature line. No-one objects to you earning a
living; we all have to do that, but when you start charging the instant
the (previously free) problem needs to go offline - that amounts to
using the newsgroups to generate business leads. I for one have never
seen you offer to take an OP's problem offline for free (you may have -
I've just never seen it).

The ethics of this matter are simple; Since you start helping for free -
finish helping for free - except of course when the problem ultimately
proves too much to reasonably expect for free, and after all other free
resources have been exhausted. Don't just go for straight for the
fee-based service.

Regards,
Graham R Seach
Microsoft Access MVP
Sydney, Australia


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...
Duane,

Your first sentence speaks volumes about your letting your emotion rule
your
thinking! That's exactly what I mean about you losing touch with
newsgroups'
core purpose. The two words are OFFER and HELP. These two words go to
the
heart of what the newsgroups are about and you are rejecting the
concept.
OFFER is defined (from your own dictionary) as "To present in order to
meet
a need or satisfy a requirement" and HELP is defined as "Relief; remedy
(sic
solution to Access related problem)". When you say you don't care what
these
words mean you are syaing you don't care whether the Access users who
come
to the newsgroups to find solutions to their problems get a solution or
not.
I present the Access users an alternative to getting a solution to
their
Access related problem that they can accept or reject. It takes up a
mere
line and a half. 1000 Access users have chosen this alternative and
have
gotten a solution to their Access related problem.

Your emotion has taken over to such a degree that you have lost all
consistency in what you are saying. Here's a quote of what you said at
the
beginning of this thread, "I would not have criticized you if this
thread
was about 10 replies long and it was clear that the OP needed to find a
contractor." And in your current response you have turned one hundred
and
eighty degrees and are carte blanc criticizing everything I do.
Additionally, in another place you said, "I personally would not mind
if a
thread went on for "many days" and maybe
20+ posts and the OP just couldn't "get it" then to offer your "for
charge"
services as long as you made it clear there would be a fee." Is it 10
replies or 20+ posts before you "allow" me to offer fee-based help?
You're
certainly not being clear. Further,
your current response is inconsistent with another MVP's opinion. Doug
Steele said, "I will grant you that the words in Rules of Conduct for
this
group, as posted at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ga...RulesofConduct
can be interpretted, should you choose to, as letting you advertise:
"We ask
that you refrain from posting advertisements or solicitations that do
not
pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the newsgroup or
chat."
Your statement number 2 is contrary to what Doug says. Finally, you are
literally correct in your statement number 1 but totally in error in
its
meaning. The newsgroups are full of advertising! There's all the
following:
o MS Access MVP
o "See http://www.QBuilt.com for all your database needs."
o "John Viescas, author
"Building Microsoft Access Applications" (Coming Soon!)
"Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out"
"Running Microsoft Access 2000"
"SQL Queries for Mere Mortals"
o David Lloyd
MCSD .NET
http://LemingtonConsulting.com
and the list goes on and on to where religious retreats are advertised
by a
MVP who
frequently responds to the newsgroups. You see all of this advertising
in
the newsgroups on a daily basis.

So you see that your arguments don't hold water and what you are saying
does
not make sense.

Steve


"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
I don't care what other words mean. Why do you dodge the meaning of
advertise? That was the object of our discussion pertaining to #1.

How could I have lost touch with newsgroups' core purpose? My emotion
took
over once when you took a comment from Ken Snell way out of context. I
called you an idiot or something for which I apologized. Your
"actions"
deserved to be called stupid and/or idiotic but not necessarily your
person as a whole.

Just because your advertising works doesn't mean it isn't advertising.

I believe there is no hope for you. You continually offer tangential
statements that aren't relative to the current point (that you use
public
newsgroups to advertise). You are too proud or poor or stubborn to
admit
that:
1) what you are doing is advertising in public newsgroups
2) netiquette suggests that advertising in public newsgroups is not
acceptable

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Offer
Particularly note 2b!!
1.. To present for acceptance or rejection; proffer: offered me a
drink.
2.. a) To put forward for consideration; propose: offer an
opinion.
b) To present in order to meet a need or satisfy a
requirement

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Help

1.
a) The act or an instance of helping.
b) Aid or assistance.
2. Relief; remedy.

You have completely lost touch with what the newsgroups' core purpose
really is.!!

In the time you have spent dogging me you could have used your
Access/database knowledge to help a multitude of Access users with
problems who came to the newsgroups seeking help solving their
problems.
This is one of the reasons 1000 Access users came to me in the past
four
years willing to pay me for help with their problems. You don't get
it!!
You have left your emotion take over just like in your previous
response
where you called me an idiot. In the past you condemned Arno R for
his
tactics and now you have become just the same. Respect for you is
quickly
fading!

Steve



"Duane Hookom" wrote in message
...
1. Your intelligence level is peeking out
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=advertise
2.-6. Your attempt to redefine netiquette.

--
Duane Hookom
MS Access MVP
--
Microsoft Access MVP


"PC Datasheet" wrote:

1. "Contact me at my email address below if you would like outside
help
with this. My fees are very reasonable" IS NOT advertising!

2. 11 requests for fee based help since I posted #1 to Sharan in
this
thread on 10/7

3. 1000 completed requests for fee based help in the last four
years

4. I judiciously only make an offer of fee-based help where it
appears
highly unlikely that a poster will get a solution to his post or
where
it
appears highly unlikely that the poster will be able to get a
solution
to
his post on his own.

5. Ten fold responses of free advice/support

6. 2 & 3 are clearly in the spirit of the newsgroups to provide a
resource
for Access users to find solutions to their problems

If it will ease your mind, I will put in the subject "Offer of
fee-based
help"

Steve

"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
ink.net...
Where does THIS come from?

You'll find some of the same code in Ken Getz's Access Developer's Handbook,
F. Scott Barker's Access Power Programming and Alison Balter's Using
Microsoft Access. Are you saying that this was a particuarly slimy thing for
them to do?

PC Datasheet


"Tim Marshall" wrote in message
...
PC Datasheet wrote:

Who is the ass?

You fabricated a statement which you finally admitted was not true. Now
what
facts do you base this latest statement on:
"including repackaging responses from cdma"?

It's time for you to smarten up and be honest and participate honestly
in the group Steve. You were repackaging code from many free sources
and trying to sell it for $125 dollars which was a particularly slimey
thing to do.

Now, you got your apology. I suggest you start adhering to the
newsgroup charter. What you're doing now is text book psych - you've
latched onto something and are doing everything you can to deflect
attention from your misbehaviour.

I ask again, using your own words: are you "man enough" to apologize to
the group for your behaviour?
--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/

"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...
Checkmate!

Wrong game.

You lose.

So having one less person to answer your questions is a victory?


John... Visio MVP

John Marshall, MVP wrote:
"PC Datasheet" wrote in message
link.net...

Checkmate!


Wrong game.


You lose.


So having one less person to answer your questions is a victory?


John... Visio MVP

Why are you people even talking to this worm?
Unleash Arno.