"Screen Scrape"

Michael (michka) Kaplan [MS] wrote:
The only way around THAT is to always use the original server,
msnews.microsoft.com. Many ISPs pick up groups that have actually been
removed, for example microsoft.public.access.developerstoolkitode was
removed when someone pointed out that there was a standard of some sort
suggesting = 14 characters per segment.

The ISPs and those who they get their feeds from claim that deleting the
group would be inapprpriate since people still post sometimes.

And then problem perpetuates itself.

aye, and the problem isn't restricted to ms.public either, I used to
take 3 different groups dedicated to Gigabyte motherboards, I solved
that one by upgrading to an Abit :-)

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Thanks Terry, your response was quite concise. It seems that there are
valid pro's and con's for both top and bottom posting.

I think that the reason I usually top post is that a posting is like
replying to an email -- in emails you normally put your reply at the top of
any part of the email that you are replying to (at least in the business
world that I belonged to this was so). Indeed, mail clients that I have
used default the cursor to the top when replying, so it is easy and natural
to reply this way. And some of these mail clients are also news clients
which also put the cursor at the top. As someone pointed out, top posting
makes it easy to browse quickly through a thread via the preview pane to get
the gist without having to scroll every message.

OTOH, bottom posting forces the poster to scroll to the bottom (unless they
use Ctrl-End) and in doing so they get the opportunity to trim the original
posting which with top posting they may forget to do.

Perhaps the most important thing in this issue (which I don't think anyone
has mentioned, apologies if I am wrong), is not to MIX top and bottom
posting in a long thread! I have seen examples of this and it is most
confusing to follow the thread. I think that the rule should be that if an
established thread is either top or bottom, additional postings should
respect that -- unless the original postings have been trimmed to the point
that it doesn't matter anymore.

Thanks to all who responded, I think I have a better understanding of the
issues and will try to keep these in mind with future postings.
--
Cheers,
Lyn.

"Terry Kreft" wrote in message
...
Lyn,
People can get quite vehement about top and bottom posting.

Essentially theadvantage of consistent bottom posting is that you can read
through the posts in sequence.

The advantage of top posting is that when you use a preview pane the
previewed content tends to be the last post.

On the subject of trimming, you should really trim previous posts to what
is
relevant to your post, in the past people could get quite nasty about not
trimming posts, this has become less of an issue though since the advent
of
fast internet links and large storage space.

Personally I'm a rabid top-poster and trim when I remember to do so,
speaking of which

--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access

Chris,
Thanks for the reference to the RFC which I have bookmarked. I think it
covers all the questions I was asking. Although as someone has pointed out
it is getting a little dated now. I was interested to note that in the
links to Comments on the RFC (which I have not yet read), the debate about
top vs bottom is alive and well, even there!

--
Cheers,
Lyn.

"Chris2" wrote in message
...

Lyn,

RFC1855: Netiquette Guidelines, http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html,
mandates bottom-posting.

SNIP

Sincerely,

Chris O.

Lyn wrote:
I think that the reason I usually top post is that a posting is like
replying to an email -- in emails you normally put your reply at the top of
any part of the email that you are replying to (at least in the business
world that I belonged to this was so). Indeed, mail clients that I have
used default the cursor to the top when replying, so it is easy and natural
to reply this way. And some of these mail clients are also news clients
which also put the cursor at the top. As someone pointed out, top posting
makes it easy to browse quickly through a thread via the preview pane to get
the gist without having to scroll every message.

Mozilla Thunderbird will pop the cursor down the bottom for you, in mail
as well as news, although this is configurable for both. It gives you a
choice of style (or a choice of which camp to upset. The MS offerings
give you no such choice, you are expected to post in the MS style (which
when it came out was contrary to everyone else's), expect to see MS'
offices change into a Borg cube anytime soon.

Perhaps the most important thing in this issue (which I don't think anyone
has mentioned, apologies if I am wrong), is not to MIX top and bottom
posting in a long thread! I have seen examples of this and it is most
confusing to follow the thread. I think that the rule should be that if an
established thread is either top or bottom, additional postings should
respect that -- unless the original postings have been trimmed to the point
that it doesn't matter anymore.

Will never happen, as you can see you top posted, but I am commenting on
particular parts of your post, not possible with top posting unless I
word my post to include most of what you wrote.

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Lyn wrote:
Chris,
Thanks for the reference to the RFC which I have bookmarked. I think it
covers all the questions I was asking. Although as someone has pointed out
it is getting a little dated now.

So none of the 10 commandments have relevance anymore? Think I'll go out
and kill someone today and covert my neighbor's wife.

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On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:01:30 +0000, Trevor Best
wrote:

expect to see MS'
offices change into a Borg cube anytime soon.

www.microsith.com

John W. Vinson[MVP]

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:37:06 GMT, Tony Toews
wrote:

John Vinson wrote:

This argument has been going on as long as Usenet has existed.

For those of us from BBSs and/or Fidonet it was defiitely trim and bottom post.

Tony

It was customary on ARPANet back when that consisted of twelve
university computers too.

John W. Vinson[MVP]

LOL! you got me, I didn't notice the cross-posting.

Trouble is once you start replying to a crosspost it's difficult to stop as
you don't know where people are replying from.


--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access


"rkc" wrote in message
.. .
Terry Kreft wrote:

People can get quite vehement about top and bottom posting.

What about eliminating newsgroups from a multi-posted article
when replying?

I thought it was covet your neighbours wife, but times change I suppose, if
you want to hide your neighbours wife then you go for it Trevor!

--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access


"Trevor Best" wrote in message
...
Lyn wrote:
Chris,
Thanks for the reference to the RFC which I have bookmarked. I think it
covers all the questions I was asking. Although as someone has pointed
out
it is getting a little dated now.

So none of the 10 commandments have relevance anymore? Think I'll go out
and kill someone today and covert my neighbor's wife.

--
This sig left intentionally blank

It was g.

--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access


"Tony Toews" wrote in message
...
John Vinson wrote:

This argument has been going on as long as Usenet has existed.

For those of us from BBSs and/or Fidonet it was defiitely trim and bottom
post.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
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