a general question

Given the additional information you just supplied, I'd say your office
is atypical. Perhaps its a peculiar document setup or it may be the
users background or maybe they are just using some of the infrequently
used features that get buried in pull downs or don't show up because of
"personalized menus"?.

And as for "statistics", "surveying a help newsgroup" as far as
"intuitiveness" it is like someone once said, there are 3 kinds of lies,
lies, damn lies, and statistics.


So for these "functions", where would the "users typically expect to
find them"? It would be in the location they "have learned to look in"
either by "prior use" OR association. Funny how it revolves around user
knowledge.

To make a point by taking it to an extreme, the interface for Word
will not be intuitive for the illiterate.


Stephan Laska wrote:

"Bob I" wrote in message
...

"Intuitiveness" is completely relative to the users experience. That's
what makes the question completely pointless and useless noise when posed
as a "voluntary survey".


well bob,
I'm sorry you're so convinced that my questioning is pointless.
It does sound like you're half convinced that I just want to
gripe about uSoft, or start a flame war, or something, but
that is just an impression I get. It's also far from my intention, so
instead of assisting me by just answering my question, which
would give me an idea if our difficulties here in the office is
typical or atypical, we engage in a minor debate on
the meanin gof intuitive. ah, well.

In any event, and despite the nice web
page you've offered, Intuitiveness is a measure of functionality
that goes a bit beyond something "completely relative to the
users experience". Intuitivness of design can be used to lessen
the learning curve by placing functions for that thing where
users typically expect to find them, rather than where the
designer thinks it would be... it involves statistics..
perhaps you've heard of that branch of math?
Statistics in this case involves polling people for their
(subjective) opinion.

"Bob I" wrote in message
...
Given the additional information you just supplied, I'd say your office is
atypical. Perhaps its a peculiar document setup or it may be the users
background or maybe they are just using some of the infrequently used
features that get buried in pull downs or don't show up because of
"personalized menus"?.

no personalized menus are being used.

And as for "statistics", "surveying a help newsgroup" as far as
"intuitiveness"

well, it make more sense than asking people at
a beach......g

it is like someone once said, there are 3 kinds of lies, lies, damn lies,
and statistics.

;-) I love that one.

So for these "functions", where would the "users typically expect to find
them"? It would be in the location they "have learned to look in" either
by "prior use" OR association. Funny how it revolves around user
knowledge.

understanding the difference between the logic and intuitiveness of a
design is not easy, and at some point they intersect. I don't mean
to propose that all designs can be made intuitive, but it sure can help.
I'll give you an example. Suppose I want to center text. I go to format
pick paragraph, and center, or i can hit the speed button. Now I want
to center my text vertically.... I go to format... and it's not there.
I need to go to file-pagesetup??? what the heck does centering text
vertically have to do with "file"? what is intuitive, even _after_
you know that it is there, about that? so, no, intuitiveness doesn't
revolve around user knowledge, while the logic of a design does.

Stephan Laska wrote:

"Bob I" wrote in message
...

Given the additional information you just supplied, I'd say your office is
atypical. Perhaps its a peculiar document setup or it may be the users
background or maybe they are just using some of the infrequently used
features that get buried in pull downs or don't show up because of
"personalized menus"?.


no personalized menus are being used.


And as for "statistics", "surveying a help newsgroup" as far as
"intuitiveness"


well, it make more sense than asking people at
a beach......g

it is like someone once said, there are 3 kinds of lies, lies, damn lies,
and statistics.


;-) I love that one.


So for these "functions", where would the "users typically expect to find
them"? It would be in the location they "have learned to look in" either
by "prior use" OR association. Funny how it revolves around user
knowledge.


understanding the difference between the logic and intuitiveness of a
design is not easy, and at some point they intersect. I don't mean
to propose that all designs can be made intuitive, but it sure can help.
I'll give you an example. Suppose I want to center text. I go to format
pick paragraph, and center, or i can hit the speed button. Now I want
to center my text vertically.... I go to format... and it's not there.
I need to go to file-pagesetup??? what the heck does centering text
vertically have to do with "file"? what is intuitive, even _after_
you know that it is there, about that? so, no, intuitiveness doesn't
revolve around user knowledge, while the logic of a design does.



Your example is good place to start, perhaps "Page Setup" could be under
Format in Word. But on the other hand, please take a look at all the
other Windows applications where "Page Setup" is under File. We have
prior knowledge working against the designer moving it to "Format". Also
one would be inclined to use this command on a "New" document which is
also under File. Or may be inclined to "adjust it" following a "Print
Preview", also in the same File menu. So we have a couple of reasons for
it to be there, users expect it there (other applications) and grouping
with the commands that would be used a step prior to it.

One could argue that to be "intuitive" all commands should be placed in
alphabetical order. I suspect that Microsoft spends a fair amount of
time, money in assessing user expectations when designing their layout
and a LOT of discussion will go into changes to the interface.

The nice thing is, IF you really want a Page Setup under Forrmat, you
can put one there! Just r-click Toolbar, Customise , Commands and then
select, and drag and drop whatever command you want, wherever you want
in the Menus or toolbars.


Cheers!

"Bob I" wrote in message
...

Your example is good place to start, perhaps "Page Setup" could be under
Format in Word. But on the other hand, please take a look at all the other
Windows applications where "Page Setup" is under File. We have prior
knowledge working against the designer moving it to "Format". Also one
would be inclined to use this command on a "New" document which is also
under File. Or may be inclined to "adjust it" following a "Print Preview",
also in the same File menu. So we have a couple of reasons for it to be
there, users expect it there (other applications) and grouping with the
commands that would be used a step prior to it.

As well as the margins being a minimum defined the printer's printable area,
so it stands to reason that page setup being there.
The choices the engineerer makes when deciding to do one thing over
another usually follow some kind of logic.. but the logic within one
discipline is usually not followed within another discipline, hence
we leave the area of familierarity and logic into the neverlands of
intuition.
g

anyway, it's been enjoyable conversing with you.

I take it you know how to use all software programs on the market straight
from the box and never have to learn where features are located and how to
use them....No I'm not confusing the logic of design. I just like to see
change and to be challenged with the change it things interesting....

Do you buy a new car and complain because the auto maker changes the dash
layout or do you just keep driving the same car because you don't like the
layout of a new car? You need to take time and learn how to work with the
change and find out where everything is located.... Just because you think
something should be located under a certain menu or tab there may be a
majority of others who like the feature where is located....

The fact is you need to take time and learn the new layout...Work with the
change and then provide positive feedback to MS about any changes you think
would be a positive change for the programs in office

--
Paul Ballou
MVP Office
http://office.microsoft.com/home
http://www.freeserifsoftware.com/
http://www.ballousgiftshop.com

Life would be easier if we could view the source code

"Stephan Laska" Ask & maybe I'll Tell wrote in message
...

"Paul Ballou" wrote in message
...

You have to learn the layout of the change in Office 2007 or any program
over time then you will find it more intuitive....

This doesn't make sense to me. If something is intuitive, then
one doesn't require "learning" how to use it to make it function.
IMHO, you are confusing "becoming familiar with the logic of
the design" with "intuitive design".

Stephan Laska wrote:

"Bob I" wrote in message
...


Your example is good place to start, perhaps "Page Setup" could be under
Format in Word. But on the other hand, please take a look at all the other
Windows applications where "Page Setup" is under File. We have prior
knowledge working against the designer moving it to "Format". Also one
would be inclined to use this command on a "New" document which is also
under File. Or may be inclined to "adjust it" following a "Print Preview",
also in the same File menu. So we have a couple of reasons for it to be
there, users expect it there (other applications) and grouping with the
commands that would be used a step prior to it.


As well as the margins being a minimum defined the printer's printable area,
so it stands to reason that page setup being there.
The choices the engineerer makes when deciding to do one thing over
another usually follow some kind of logic.. but the logic within one
discipline is usually not followed within another discipline, hence
we leave the area of familierarity and logic into the neverlands of
intuition.
g

anyway, it's been enjoyable conversing with you.

Likewise, and have a good day!

"Paul Ballou" wrote in message
...

I take it you know how to use all software programs on the market straight
from the box and never have to learn where features are located and how to
use them....

That's an amusing retort.

No I'm not confusing the logic of design.

I just like to see change and to be challenged with the change it things
interesting....

Hmmm, supose an interface had menus and functions randomly
arranged. Lets also suppose that every two weeks the menu
and function assignments rearranged themselves.
would you find this program endlessly enjoyable?

Logic has functionality grouped by catagory and
in some sort of hierarchy.
Intuativeness has functionality grouped by use and
expectations.

Do you buy a new car and complain because the auto maker changes the dash
layout or do you just keep driving the same car because you don't like the
layout of a new car? You need to take time and learn how to work with the
change and find out where everything is located.... Just because you think
something should be located under a certain menu or tab there may be a
majority of others who like the feature where is located....

hence my original question, to see if others found it intuative..

The fact is you need to take time and learn the new layout

it's more than just how things are arranged, it's also the methodologies.